Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Originally posted by ODG
It's the overarching crisis/nemesis that threatens Eternity and is being investigated by the Defenders in Defenders: Beyond. Who/what it is exactly, is a mystery.

The lengths the Defenders had to go through just to catch a brief and cryptic glimpse speaks to the power it presents. The Defenders went outside reality to the remnants of the Second Cosmos where the Beyonders reside, ascended to the White Hot Room from there, fell into the Abyss of the Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, were rescued by the Neverqueen into the Land of Can-Be-Shall-Be and visited the House of Ideas where TOAA resides.

All that, just for a scrap of knowledge. UN instantly destroyed and restarted the entire Marvel Multiverse with a single click. LT never did that. The Beyonders tried to systematically do that with their Molecule Men bomb plot. Abraxas was collapsing the walls between alternate universes and threatening ther entire Multiverse with his very presence but it wasn't instant either.

It's just a feat with a scope of destruction/creation that is unmatched.

Whilst i get your reasoning, I still think its a bit premature to place the Dominion at number 1.

All signs are pointing towards it being the Phalanx related Dominion 1st mentioned in Powers of X:

https://imgur.com/3cVCPJJ

https://imgur.com/vS7LEAh

https://imgur.com/B0JbMIG

For example Defenders reference to it being non-linear and outside of time and space:

https://imgur.com/15Kk77U

And the recent Sins of Sinister title which emphasized it being a threat that resided beyond space and time:

https://imgur.com/AozJ0kN

https://imgur.com/wSi81nH

https://imgur.com/TQydGkj

I cant believe theres no connection. Said Dominion is said to fear Galactus and the Phoenix Force, with Destiny foreseeing futures where the mutants empowered by the Phoenix Force defeated:

https://imgur.com/pDtBfYl

Also i wouldnt say the UN destroyed and recreated the multiverse. Creation isnt a function of the UN. More like it reset it. Reed nullified the multiverse and the multiverse restored itself:

https://imgur.com/sjRHyNV

https://imgur.com/ry1W3KM

^ I never even thought to believe that the Enigma was a Dominion.

Dominions are made up of Titans. Titans are interstellar societies that have become so advanced that the density of their unified intelligence have collapsed space-time into singularities. Dominions are collectives of Titans (at least ten but usually averaging many more) and are universal who may transcend the time/space of a universe but they certainly haven't been hinted as being multiversal in any comic I've ever read.

Dominions fear Galactus and the Phoenixforce and other universal abstracts.

I strongly doubt, nor have ever endorsed, that the Enigma is a Dominion. Dominions are way down the pecking order in the overall Marvel cosmic hierarchy.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I never even thought to believe that the Enigma was a Dominion.

Dominions are made up of Titans. Titans are interstellar societies that have become so advanced that the density of their unified intelligence have collapsed space-time into singularities. Dominions are collectives of Titans (at least ten but usually averaging many more) and are universal who may transcend the time/space of a universe but they certainly haven't been hinted as being multiversal in any comic I've ever read.

Dominions fear Galactus and the Phoenixforce and other universal abstracts.

I strongly doubt, nor have ever endorsed, that the Enigma is a Dominion. Dominions are way down the pecking order in the overall Marvel cosmic hierarchy.

And yet the Enigma is also called the Dominion by the Beyonders and their beyond/time and space nature being a threat to reality is a match.

Just strikes me as too much of a coincidence that within a similar timeframe two non-linear outside of space/time multiversal threats are being built up in the X-men world and Defenders. Al-Ewing writes an X-men title so he would be very much aware of the plans of X-space.

Im sure we'll find out very soon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet the Enigma is also called the Dominion by the Beyonders and their beyond/time and space nature being a threat to reality is a match.

Just strikes me as too much of a coincidence that within a similar timeframe two non-linear outside of space/time multiversal threats are being built up in the X-men world and Defenders. Al-Ewing writes an X-men title so he would be very much aware of the plans of X-space.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too. Purple prose is purple prose.

Dominions are below universal abstracts. Hickman also made it clear that Dominions fear Galactus and the Phoenixforce.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im sure we'll find out very soon.

Or are you going to wait it out hoping there is some single comic that reinvigorates your wild estimations of its relevance int eh cosmic hierarchy?

Originally posted by ODG
I suppose the Aspirants/Celestials ought to be in the same tier. Maybe even the same tier as the Godkiller. So little has been revealed about their war that you cannot necessarily differentiate their level of hierarchy.

Maelstrom w/ Anomaly & Quantum Bands no-sold Thanos w/ IG. I'd still separate them because that feat renders the two just too starkly distinct.

As for Abraxas, I placed him that high because it appears to me that it took total multiversal destruction/recreation/manipulation to get rid of him. Any other foe could arguably be defeated by just destroying them. Like the Griever at the End of All Things was sh1tting her pants when Franklin Richards pointed the UN at her. But I don't dispute that's ancillary to what Abraxas himself performed on-panel.

Abraxas basically performed feats of destroying/blending the alternate universes of the Marvel Multiverse together passively with his presence. That's kind of like a combination of what Griever at the End of All Things + Demonstaff (except without being within the plot device "Void which exists between the myriad dimensions", a.k.a. the Bleed).

I admit that Galactus' placement was a struggle. Like, Abraxas was held back by Galactus simply existing. But I think Galactus' performance during fights holds as much, if not more, weight than his cosmic significance. In short, if you threw four Mad Celestials into a fight with a well-fed Galactus, Galactus would lose... because he did on-panel. Sorta carries more weight than the fact that Galactus literally holds back a multiversal threat, i.e., Abraxas... ? Is that fair?

Dunno. Hence the conversation.

I could see Cube Beings being reorganized though. I forgot that Doom w/ Galactus' power got wrecked by a single Cosmic Cube. Not even an evolved Cube Being. Then again, the Maker was incapacitated by far less. Evolved Cube Beings barely have any agency.

With regards to Maelstrom i think youre overrating him massively. I can see why your point of view, but you cant really rank him at or beyond IG level for not getting destroyed by one blast of energy.

https://imgur.com/jHqhEIc

https://imgur.com/XL61UNE

For all we know he was intangible or his nature as the embodiment of anomaly making him impervious to such a basic attack.

Anomaly demonstrated how his nature could make attacks ineffective here whilst at the same time making it clear he was subservient to the Abstracts:

https://imgur.com/wCXxAAY

https://imgur.com/TrPYSi6

Maelstrom shortly after his skirmish with Thanos went on to fight Quasar who was acting as avatar for Infinity and admitted they were evenly matched power wise, before getting defeated:

https://imgur.com/0Vi00Wo

https://imgur.com/XXfBRs4

So Maelstrom is def being overrated.

Abraxas im in two minds about, as whilst his ambitions made him a multiversal threat, feat wise he didnt do anything to place him above universal abstracts.

Many beings His nature might have meant he cant be directly destroyed and instead reality had to be debugged via the the UN to get rid of him indirectly. That doesnt mean hes a certified top dog though. Doesnt have the feats for it.

In terms of the Cube beings, i def am with you though. Its tough because the Cosmic Cubes def have greater feats, but i think thats because theyre inanimate objects who we usually see wielded by villains so their powers used irresponsibly in that setting.

But as cube beings theyre sentient, have agendas and arent exactlt villanous so we dont see their power used in the same way.

And yet the cube beings remain a more advanced stage than the cosmic cubes in the life cycle towards becoming a fully fledged Beyonder.

https://imgur.com/Cn87Vsv

So cube beings natures see them generally not as impressive feat wise but power wise theyre technically likely to be just as if not more powerful than Cosmic Cubes.

Originally posted by ODG
How ironic coming from the guy who was worried how Hickman might up-end what Ewing was establishing.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too. Purple prose is purple prose.

Dominions are below universal abstracts. Hickman also made it clear that Dominions fear Galactus and the Phoenixforce. Are you going to accept every revelation like you accepted AvX, Emperor Doom choking out Phoenixforce Scott, Firehair Phoenix being defeated by the First Celestial Host, Echo Phoenix's adventures, etc.?

Or are you going to wait it out hoping there is some single comic that reinvigorates your wild estimations of its relevance int eh cosmic hierarchy?

Yooo. Where is this animosity coming from? Relax.

I'm simply contributing to the discourse. Ive brought zero negative energy, just read your thoughts and shared mine along with evidence as to why i think the way i do.

This reactions a bit baffling. Are you ok? 😕

Originally posted by ODG
How ironic coming from the guy who was worried how Hickman might up-end what Ewing was establishing.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too. Purple prose is purple prose.

Dominions are below universal abstracts. Hickman also made it clear that Dominions fear Galactus and the Phoenixforce. Are you going to accept every revelation like you accepted AvX, Emperor Doom choking out Phoenixforce Scott, Firehair Phoenix being defeated by the First Celestial Host, Echo Phoenix's adventures, etc.?

Or are you going to wait it out hoping there is some single comic that reinvigorates your wild estimations of its relevance int eh cosmic hierarchy?

Me being worried about Hickman changing what Ewings established doesnt change the fact that there are possible links between these threats and indications that they could be the same entity.

We dont know enough about this Dominion to be ranking it yet. So you cant say its below the universal abstracts as the comics dont even say that.

They say the Abstracts regard the Dominion as a natural part of existence. Not that theyre below the Abstracts thats very different.

However that reference is from a 2019 comic. So if it is indeed the same threat (which it isnt for def) then it couldve evolved beyond its original Hickman concept and become a different kind of bad under Ewing where it is a threat to the Abstracts, hence Eternity calling on the Defenders.

Who knows, lets wait and see.

As for all that Phoenix stuff, who cares? Why'd you get petty for? We last had a debate like 10yrs ago, are you seriously holding grudges? We're old now, breathe and let go 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Many beings His nature might have meant he cant be directly destroyed and instead reality had to be debugged via the the UN to get rid of him indirectly. That doesnt mean hes a certified top dog though. Doesnt have the feats for it.

Half asleep when i typed this wonky sentence. Ignore the "Many beings" and just read from the "His"

Originally posted by ODG
Alright, I'll take a shot at a hierarchy to encourage discussion. Disclaimer: I'm several many beers in and have not thought very hard on this:

1. The Enigma, a.k.a. The Crown Above All Others (based on lip service, so far)
2. Astral Regulators
3. The One Above All/The One Below All/The House of Ideas
4. The Ultimate Nullifier
5. Abraxas
6. The Beyonder(s)/The Ivory Kings
7. Molecule Man (conglomerated)
8. Multi-Eternity/The First Firmament/The Queen of Nevers/Griever at the End of All Things
9. THOTU
10. Living Tribunal
11. Lifeforce/White Hot Room/Tiger God
12. Engine Room of Creation/Concordance Engines/Enigma Force
13. Adult Franklin Richards
14. Maelstrom w/ Anomaly & Quantum Bands
15. Infinity Gauntlet
16. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion
17. The Fulcrum/Tiamut the Communicator a.k.a the Dreaming Celestial
18. The Celestial Host/The Horde
19. The Aspirants, a.k.a Dark Celestials
20. The Godkiller Armor
21. Galactus
22. Shaper of Worlds/Kubik/Cube Beings
23. Master Order/Lord Chaos/
24. Epoch/Kronos/Master Hate/Mistress Love
25. The Inbetweener/The Stranger

EDIT: I fully recognize I am missing a lot of cosmic beings/artifacts/concepts here. So have at it. I am certainly not beholden to this initial list.

Why would the Molecule Man conglomerated be ranked so high when he was only uber powerful in current continuity when he was a conduit for the power of the Beyonders? Thats not his standard power, but instead a temporary boost so probably shouldnt be a basis for his ranking.

Whats Adult Franklin to place him so high? Genuine question. His showings placed him at Celestial level as far as ive seen. Maybe youre aware of feats i havent seen?

Why is the White Hot Room so low? In Ewings Kabbalah inspired cosmology its Tiphereth which is the core of multiversal importance. In Kabbalah Tiphereth is the point of transmutation/ conversion. The Supreme Beings immaterial will to create descends from Keter across the Abyss and at Tiphereth the immaterial will to create becomes manifest Force to create. This Force descends from here to Yesod (thats a point of coordination in Kaballah) and then to Malkuth where it becomes form (the multiverse) via the Big Bang.

https://imgur.com/MN7tnai

https://imgur.com/yOYABTT

https://imgur.com/QL6KUFC

https://imgur.com/UOY6WEZ

https://imgur.com/JakDO6b

Ewing incorporated this Kaballah cosmology by equating parts of the Kaballah system with places of cosmic importance in Marvel. TOAA's will to create resides at the House of Ideas (Keter) this crosses the Abyss/Land of Couldnt be Shouldnt Be (Daat) to the conversion point Tiphereth/White Hot Room where the will to create becomes the force to create which Ewing has highlighted is the True Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force descends down the multiversal structure to Malkuth where as the Big Bang it forms the multiverse.

https://imgur.com/61vYLER

https://imgur.com/tfkFlJJ

https://imgur.com/T8qjZQG

With the Beyonders at Yesod (Engine room of creation) doing their part to ensure creations smooth running

So in that way, Ewings revisited the Kaballah inspirations used by Claremont and Morrison and gone further with the integration and made even more of the Marvel cosmological structure and certain entities fit in with it all.

The White Hot Room has become not only the birthplace of the multiverse but also the point of return, the multiversal afterlife for entities:

https://imgur.com/hVObbJ8

https://imgur.com/qbKFz94

https://imgur.com/E3P9a5g

The White Hot Room aka "The Mystery" beyond the Far Shore, where the multiversal Abstracts begin and where they return:

https://imgur.com/vXizczw

https://imgur.com/fakL3Yv

https://imgur.com/PkN7nCF

https://imgur.com/tQ64eOO

The birthplace and return point of the multiverse:

https://imgur.com/pKl4UQ1

To defend the ranking of Maelstrom and Thanos with the Infinity Gems (although I think they should be equal). In an alternate reality Quasar were Maelstrom won he was fighting Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet for supremacy.

Originally posted by Astner

This isn't as straightforwards as you're making it out to be, because the issue referred to is Quasar #24 where he does confront a number of characters weaker than him including the Watcher, Galactus and Arishem the Celestial.

In fact it's made clear in an alternate reality that Quasar travels to where Maelstrom defeated Quasar in Quasar #30, where we see what appears to be a stalemate between Thanos and Maelstrom.

And it kind of makes sense too because Maelstrom would -- according to Infinity -- have supplanted Oblivion if he would've won.

Originally posted by Astner
In Quasar #25 Infinity even beat Oblivion, and it was implied that Oblivion's avatar, Maelstrom would've enslaved Oblivion had he succeeded in defeating Quasar and Infinity.

Originally posted by Astner
To defend the ranking of Maelstrom and Thanos with the Infinity Gems (although I think they should be equal). In an alternate reality Quasar were Maelstrom won he was fighting Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet for supremacy.

And it kind of makes sense too because Maelstrom would -- according to Infinity -- have supplanted Oblivion if he would've won.

Hey bro.

I get why you'd think that way, but the circumstances in that alternate reality differ, our Maelstrom never reached that level of power so it wouldnt be accurate to base 616 Maelstrom on that counterpart.

Thanos with the IG is more powerful than the Abstracts combined.

After Thanos' blast did nothing to Maelstrom (likely not a matter of power but instead due to Anomaly's nature which i referred to in my previous post) he later was empowered even further by Oblivion:

https://imgur.com/llMJCn3

and yet Infinity, a being inferior to the IG who on top of that was weakened by Maelstroms black hole, was able to empower Quasar to the point where he was evenly matched with the suped up Maelstrom:

https://imgur.com/0Vi00Wo

Thus demonstrating that at the earlier point where he faced Thanos, he was not as powerful.

Another thing to note is Maelstrom reiterating that as time progresses the universe gets closer to reaching that point of no return whereby he becomes realities supreme power. So hes getting progressively more powerful as his plan proceeds.

That alternate reality Maelstrom had won the battle with Quasar so his plan wouldve no doubt been at a more advanced state, maybe even at the point of no return that Maelstrom refers to above. Perhaps thats the reason why the alternate reality Uatu refers to it being all over:

https://imgur.com/cOiX9wv

Granted that last bit is speculation, but what we do know for a fact is that at the point 616 Maelstrom had that confrontation with Thanos, he conclusively was not superior to the IG.

We also know that the alternate Maelstrom had won, which meant his singularity plans had advanced beyond the 616 versions so with such a variance we cant make assertions regarding the 616 version. All inconclusive.

Yeah, I agree. I was moreso referring to Maelstrom's potential power than his actual power. Because of the nature of the Multiverse (and because it's interesting to know) I think that he should be included.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Granted that last bit is speculation, but what we do know for a fact is that at the point 616 Maelstrom had that confrontation with Thanos, he conclusively was not superior to the IG.

Originally posted by Astner
Yeah, I agree. I was moreso referring to Maelstrom's potential power than his actual power. Because of the nature of the Multiverse (and because it's interesting to know) I think that he should be included.

This, however, I do disagree with. With the Infinity Gauntlet he was able to defeat the entire cosmic host with a wave of his hand. The fact that he didn't seem able to do that against Maelstrom in the alternate reality implies to me that they're somewhat equal, and while Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet might be more powerful, the reverse could also be true. That's why I consider them equal: because they're close in power, and we don't know who has an edge over the other (if either of them do).

But then that perspective fails to acknowledge the fact that Maelstrom after his confrontation with Thanos, went on to be empowered by Oblivion only for him to remain at best on par with Quasar who was Infinitys avatar. That means he couldnt have been as powerful as the IG in that earlier confrontation with Thanos when he was at a reduced state.

He was later empowered and said power level was quantified and it was Infinity level.

You cant draw conclusions from the alternate reality because the circumstances were different. He had arguably gotten more powerful as his plans to create the singularity wouldve progressed if he killed Quasar in the battle. So the alternate reality showing is inconclusive.

All we do know is the 616 version that had a brief exchange with Thanos was below Infinity in power. He was likely able to brush off Thanos' attack because of the nature of Anomaly:

https://imgur.com/wCXxAAY

https://imgur.com/TrPYSi6

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yooo. Where is this animosity coming from? Relax.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I'm simply contributing to the discourse. Ive brought zero negative energy, just read your thoughts and shared mine along with evidence as to why i think the way i do.

This reactions a bit baffling. Are you ok? 😕

I was the one who asked for discourse, after all. I accept that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Me being worried about Hickman changing what Ewings established doesnt change the fact that there are possible links between these threats and indications that they could be the same entity.

We dont know enough about this Dominion to be ranking it yet. So you cant say its below the universal abstracts as the comics dont even say that.

They say the Abstracts regard the Dominion as a natural part of existence. Not that theyre below the Abstracts thats very different.

While there might be room for interpretation, I think the implication is clear. Indeed, it's not an implication. It's explicitly stated. There are primal threats to Dominions. The only ones other than Universal Abstracts are Galactus and Phoenixforce. That explicitly places Dominions beneath Universal Abstracts.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However that reference is from a 2019 comic. So if it is indeed the same threat (which it isnt for def) then it couldve evolved beyond its original Hickman concept and become a different kind of bad under Ewing where it is a threat to the Abstracts, hence Eternity calling on the Defenders.

Who knows, lets wait and see.

You can reserve judgment but there is no way I am going to conflate the Enigma with a Dominion. And there is ample evidence against making such a wild assumption. It's not serious enough to engage, let alone entertain.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for all that Phoenix stuff, who cares? Why'd you get petty for? We last had a debate like 10yrs ago, are you seriously holding grudges? We're old now, breathe and let go 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why would the Molecule Man conglomerated be ranked so high when he was only uber powerful in current continuity when he was a conduit for the power of the Beyonders? Thats not his standard power, but instead a temporary boost so probably shouldnt be a basis for his ranking.

The scope of power that a conglomerated Molecule Man operates can systematically destroy or restore the entire Marvel Multiverse. Read Secret Wars and Fantastic Four vol. 6 for details.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whats Adult Franklin to place him so high? Genuine question. His showings placed him at Celestial level as far as ive seen. Maybe youre aware of feats i havent seen?

I mean, Al Ewing revealed that TOBA needed to eliminate Franklin Richards because he was the "anointed prince" to shepherd in the Ninth Cosmos as Hickman foreshowed in Fantastic Four. Given how much you go on to selectively rely on Al Ewing's symbolic motifs... this lack of knowledge of Al Ewing's on-panel revelations strikes me as a stark discrepancy in your own logic.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why is the White Hot Room so low? In Ewings Kabbalah inspired cosmology its Tiphereth which is the core of multiversal importance. In Kabbalah Tiphereth is the point of transmutation/ conversion. The Supreme Beings immaterial will to create descends from Keter across the Abyss and at Tiphereth the immaterial will to create becomes manifest Force to create. This Force descends from here to Yesod (thats a point of coordination in Kaballah) and then to Malkuth where it becomes form (the multiverse) via the Big Bang.

Ewing incorporated this Kaballah cosmology by equating parts of the Kaballah system with places of cosmic importance in Marvel. TOAA's will to create resides at the House of Ideas (Keter) this crosses the Abyss/Land of Couldnt be Shouldnt Be (Daat) to the conversion point Tiphereth/White Hot Room where the will to create becomes the force to create which Ewing has highlighted is the True Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force descends down the multiversal structure to Malkuth where as the Big Bang it forms the multiverse.

The birthplace and return point of the multiverse:

https://imgur.com/pKl4UQ1

You have an argument. True. You don't have a good argument. I've said the same of somebody arguing that some decades-old pre-Crisis Superboy scans were relevant, much less determinative, of how current Superman's intellect functions. This is no different.

If you had a better argument, you'd have posed it. As it stands, you don't. That's not my fault since it's not my argument but your's. And the burden of proof doesn't fall on me to disprove the tenuously flimsy strands that connect your theories.

My patience thins.

I do have one question about your ranking of Adult Franklin, ODG:

Yes, he is indeed the shepherd of the subsequent cosmos(as explicitly shown in History of the Marvel Universe.) That much cannot be denied/ignored. However, the same series also indicated that he is, essentially, the equal/opposite of Galactus(ie. if Galactus is the ultimate destroyer, then Franklin is the ultimate creator, etc.)... But for all intents and purposes, I have always viewed them as relative peers(albeit on different sides of the coin) from a purely "cosmologically significant" POV -- though where sheer power is concerned, I, too, would place Franklin above the likes of Galactus and Celestials.

That said, I'm curious why you would place Franklin above forces like THOTI, or to a lesser extent, the IG? Mainly because...from a battle board perspective, I suppose...I'm not sure if his depth of power within an individual universe actually exceeds those forces?

Originally posted by Galan007
I do have one question about your ranking of Adult Franklin, ODG:

Yes, he is indeed the shepherd of the subsequent cosmos(as explicitly shown in History of the Marvel Universe.) That much cannot be denied/ignored. However, the same series also indicated that he is, essentially, the equal/opposite of Galactus(ie. if Galactus is the ultimate destroyer, then Franklin is the ultimate creator, etc.)... But for all intents and purposes, I have always viewed them as relative peers(albeit on different sides of the coin) from a purely "cosmologically significant" POV -- though where sheer power is concerned, I, too, would place Franklin above the likes of Galactus and Celestials.

Originally posted by Galan007
That said, I'm curious why you would place Franklin above forces like THOTI, or to a lesser extent, the IG? Mainly because...from a battle board perspective, I suppose...I'm not sure if his depth of power within an individual universe actually exceeds those forces?

As for the IG, no single IG is going to herald the Ninth Cosmos, a.k.a an entire Marvel Multiverse into being. Adult Franklin Richards will... unless the TOBA stops him. The hierarchal categorization is simply a matter of relative scope.

1. The Enigma, a.k.a. The Crown Above All Others (based on lip service, so far)
2. Astral Regulators
3. The One Above All/The One Below All/The House of Ideas
4. The Ultimate Nullifier
5. The Beyonder(s)/The Ivory Kings/The Ebony King???
6. Living Tribunal (conglomerated)
7. Molecule Man (conglomerated)
8. Multi-Eternity/The First Firmament/The Queen of Nevers/Griever at the End of All Things
9. Abraxas
10. Lifeforce/White Hot Room/Tiger God
11. The Master of Doom/Clyde Wyncham
12. Engine Room of Creation/Concordance Engines/Enigma Force
13. Adult Franklin Richards
14. The Infinites
15. THOTU
16. Infinity Gauntlet/Maelstrom w/ Anomaly & Quantum Bands/Nemesis
17. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion
18. The Fulcrum/Tiamut the Communicator a.k.a the Dreaming Celestial
19. The Celestial Host/The Horde/The Aspirants, a.k.a Dark Celestials/The Godkiller Armor/The Watchers
20. Knull
21. Galactus/Aegis/Tenebrous/Korvac w/ Power Cosmic
22. Shaper of Worlds/Kubik/Cube Beings
23. Master Order/Lord Chaos/
24. Epoch/Kronos/Master Hate/Mistress Love
25. The Inbetweener/The Stranger

Again, I fully recognize I am missing a lot of cosmic beings/artifacts/concepts here. I'm like 15 beers in. Sue me. Or just discuss. I will try harder to not take it personally and be a jerk about it during discussion.

Originally posted by ODG

While there might be room for interpretation, I think the implication is clear. Indeed, it's not an implication. It's explicitly stated. There are primal threats to Dominions. The only ones other than Universal Abstracts are Galactus and Phoenixforce. That explicitly places Dominions beneath Universal Abstracts. Dominions have done nothing on-panel to suggest they are capable of multiversal scope.

You can reserve judgment but there is no way I am going to conflate the Enigma with a Dominion. And there is ample evidence against making such a wild assumption. It's not serious enough to engage, let alone entertain.

Nowhere is it explicitly stated that the Dominion are below the universal Abstracts. Theres not a single sentence in the scan you've presented that explicitly states that. However what is there, you have reasoned into a tenuous narrative.

Here is the sentence:

"Beyond universal Abstracts (under which Dominions are seen as "naturally occurring"😉, the only primal threats that a Dominion fears are the World-Eater, Galactus, and the singular universal manifestation of life, the Phoenix."

Where in this, does it explicitly say the Dominion are below the Abstracts? (They might very well be, but this paragraph certainly doesn't confirm that in any explicit way.) Please isolate the part which from what I can see, you're misinterpreting.

Paraphrasing this paragraph, what is stated is that other than the Abstracts, (who themselves see the Dominion as a natural part of existence and so are unlikely to interfere with them) the only other things the Dominion regard as a threat are Galactus and the Phoenix. Who unlike the Abstracts are very much likely to oppose the Dominion.

Zero hierarchical establishment. Was purely talking about who the Dominion fear and out of who they fear, whose agenda/role means they'll be active opposition.

As for multiversal scope, it is stated that as a Dominion Sinister leaves a single timeline and becomes all times:

https://imgur.com/FmXsukL

And also that as a Dominion you can act across all timelines:

https://imgur.com/s3dzFg6

So zero multiversal scope isnt necessarily true.