Comic Book Questions & Discussion

How could they mess up DC One Million so badly? Any time you see them after Grant Morrison's simenal work, they're getting their butts handed to them. Even Superman Prime himself lost to The Seven Deadly Sins.

DC One Million characters could have made events, had they used them right. How cool would a story about Superman One Million or Superman Prime stepping in sort out a time anomaly against, say, the Gentry have been?

Or the whiner Superboy Prime meets the Superman Prime for a pit stop in the middle of a larger story, complaining about how stupid the entire concept of a golden Superman is.

It's like they wanted to turn them into jokes.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ It has been very good so far. Pretty much the only DC book I've been following. 👆

I gave Wonder Woman's Lazarus Planet storyline a fair shot. Art/stakes were good for the first half. Sh1t just fell flat on its face in the second half. Same thing with the current Black Adam run. The incessant changing of writer/artist creative teams within individual Batman titles like Detective Comics is infuriating. I feel like a schizophrenic trying to read each issue to next issue.

I am hoping the new Green Lantern series pays off like Grant Morrison's 2-volume run did but it already feels like they're sandbagging me with pointless Elseworlds versions of John Stewart/Guy Gardner in their epilogues. Yes, I am aware that the antagonists of those epilogues will be "deeply" connected to the antagonists that Hal Jordan will eventually face. But ffs, evil nemeses from alternate DC universes is becoming a tired trope.

Originally posted by cdtm
At the "Target Snake Eyes" part of IDW's G.I. Joe, which marks nearly the end of the run before the big "Revolution" event with Transformers and other Hasbro IP's (Was a cool concept, seeing M.A.S.K. and Visionaries and Micronauts and GI Joe and Transformers and ROM sharing one universe, but a failure.)

Essentially Storm Shadow and his group of ninja's worked for Cobra, and he is mad Zartan, under Cobra Commanders orders, murdered his sensei and impersonated him. So he petitions Snake Eyes for a truce and team up to crush Cobra. Snake Eyes pretends to agree, but he causally murders Storm Shadows students every chance he gets and his real agenda seems to be having Cobra and Storm Shadows ninjas destroy each other.

Storm Shadow thinks of Snake Eyes as a brother, and we get scenes of them growing up together in Ninja school. Storm Shadows own trusted lieutenants repeatedly tell him Snake Eyes is playing them as Ninja needlessly die by the dozen, but he won't hear it. Until he finally gets video evidence from one loyal underling who set up a hidden Ninja Go-pro in the event he was one of the slaughtered, which he was, and arranged for someone else to deliver the video.

Under these circumstances, it is [b]really hard to see Storm Shadow as the bad guy here. You kind of want him to get Snake Eyes for this.

As for GI Joe, they consider Snake a defector. He went AWOL on this, refuses to come in, refuses to be taken in under threat of force (So far both Helix and Scarlett had him at gun point and just let him walk away) and the Joes have to assume the worst. [/B]

So IDW GI Joe introduced a new character named Helix. Her gimmick is essentially a Midnighter style Battle Computer brain where she sees the entire battlefield as a series of statistics and can predict everything and counter everything. She proved her bona-fides by gunning down Snake Eyes with rubber bullets in a dual, who usually just dances around gun fire.

This naturally set her up as possibly being the strongest Joe of all. And then you reach the Target: Snake Eyes storyline, and Storm Shadow casually defeats her skill by firing off multiple machineguns and slipping an undetectable drugged needle into her neck as she's focused on the bullets. And then he beats her again, by throwing a shrunken into the barrel of her gun as she pulls the trigger, blowing up her hand.

Basically they build her up just to job her out to Storm Shadow.

This does beg the question of whether Bullseye could be the Anti-Midnighter though. Even a Battle Computer can't predict EVERYTHING, Mids is limited by what he knows. And Bullseye has so many unconventional tactics he can try that only someone with Radar Vision would see coming.

Originally posted by Mane
heres my version of the Hierarchy.

1. Thanos w/ THOTU
2. The One Above All
3. Living Tribunal
4. Adam Warlock w/ The Infinity Gauntlet
5. Death
6. Eternity
7. Infinity
8. The Celestials
9. Master Order/Lord Chaos
10. Galactus
11. Eternals
12. Shaper of Worlds
13. Beyonder
14. Odin
15. Power Cosmic
16. Phoenix Force
17. Franklin Richards
18. Molecule Man
19. Destroyer
20. Pantheon of Gods
21. Kubik
22. Mephisto
23. Thor w/ Odinforce
24. Beta Ray Bill
25. Silver Surfer
26. Thor
27. Captain Universe (Cosmic Spider-Man)

who dares to disagree!? 😈

I am interested in seeing opinions.

The best course of action would be to figure out what writers are doing the cosmic events (Starlin, Gruenwald, Hickman, Ewing, etc.) create independent hierarchies for their stories and then try to get them to overlap.

I'd do it, but Ewing is in the middle of his story with the Crown, which is seemingly greater than the One Above All. So I'd rather wait until that comes out.

Originally posted by Astner
The best course of action would be to figure out what writers are doing the cosmic events (Starlin, Gruenwald, Hickman, Ewing, etc.) create independent hierarchies for their stories and then try to get them to overlap.

I'd do it, but Ewing is in the middle of his story with the Crown, which is seemingly greater than the One Above All. So I'd rather wait until that comes out.

Part of me also thinks that what Al Ewing does won't completely upend a lot of things he's so far established as the latest, most influential cosmic chronicler for Marvel.

Edit

Alright, I'll take a shot at a hierarchy to encourage discussion. Disclaimer: I'm several many beers in and have not thought very hard on this:

1. The Enigma, a.k.a. The Crown Above All Others (based on lip service, so far)
2. Astral Regulators
3. The One Above All/The One Below All/The House of Ideas
4. The Ultimate Nullifier
5. Abraxas
6. The Beyonder(s)/The Ivory Kings
7. Molecule Man (conglomerated)
8. Multi-Eternity/The First Firmament/The Queen of Nevers/Griever at the End of All Things
9. THOTU
10. Living Tribunal
11. Lifeforce/White Hot Room/Tiger God
12. Engine Room of Creation/Concordance Engines/Enigma Force
13. Adult Franklin Richards
14. Maelstrom w/ Anomaly & Quantum Bands
15. Infinity Gauntlet
16. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion
17. The Fulcrum/Tiamut the Communicator a.k.a the Dreaming Celestial
18. The Celestial Host/The Horde
19. The Aspirants, a.k.a Dark Celestials
20. The Godkiller Armor
21. Galactus
22. Shaper of Worlds/Kubik/Cube Beings
23. Master Order/Lord Chaos/
24. Epoch/Kronos/Master Hate/Mistress Love
25. The Inbetweener/The Stranger

EDIT: I fully recognize I am missing a lot of cosmic beings/artifacts/concepts here. So have at it. I am certainly not beholden to this initial list.

UT above LT wtf? 😆

^ When you say UT, what are you referring to?

Bring the criticism. It's not like Marvel has been perfectly consistent here. Any list is going to have consistencies... even rising to the level of contradictions.

Originally posted by ODG

1. The Enigma, a.k.a. The Crown Above All Others (based on lip service, so far)
.[/i]

who is that and what book is it from

Originally posted by ODG
^ When you say UT, what are you referring to?

Bring the criticism. It's not like Marvel has been perfectly consistent here. Any list is going to have consistencies... even rising to the level of contradictions.

Meant UN.

It's eerie that I agree with the main outline of ODG's post. There are certain characters whose placements don't make much sense at all, e.g. Abraxas and the Cube Beings. I'd also place the Lesser Abstracts above Galactus and some of the tiers I'd just put together (like the Aspirants and Celestials, or Maelstorm and the Infinity Gauntlet). But there are a lot of controversial takes there that I agree with, which is refreshing since I every time I see a tier list (be it for Marvel or DC) it ends up being utter trash.

Originally posted by MrMind
who is that and what book is it from

Originally posted by cdtm
Meant UN.

Just to be clear the list is not without its controversies. The energies of Ultimate Nullifier were redirected by the Infinity Gauntlet. But I'd probably side with ODG here.

While Marvel hasn't really put it this way, I'd like to think the MU core cosmology as a four-step cycle:
1) existence
2) transition to non-existence
3) non-existence
4) transition back to existence (go to 1)

Steps 1 and 3 represent states of being, and are associated with the abstracts Eternity/Infinity and Death/Oblivion, respectively.
Steps 2 and 4 are transitions/processes between states of being, and are associated with the cosmic powers Galactus and Phoenix, respectively. The "transition powers" require a host (e.g. Galan and Jean Grey) whereas the "states powers" do not (they have an independent existence).

The other cosmics are, then, mostly either servants or overseers of this cycle.

Originally posted by Astner
Just to be clear the list is not without its controversies. The energies of Ultimate Nullifier were redirected by the Infinity Gauntlet. But I'd probably side with ODG here.

Yeah the Gauntlet is what I was thinking of.

So one for. one against. Any other reason to think the UN is that strong? Because if it was that strong it begs the question why Galacticus didn't break it out against Thanos.

Isn't LT supposed to be guarding the multiverse anyways? Figured he was stronger then Multi-Eternity. LT was always the apex abstract, the last line of defense.

My stab at the cosmic hierarchy 😖hifty:

1) Astral regulators
2) TOAA / House of Ideas
3) White Hot Room / True Phoenix Force / Tiger God / Multi-Eternity / Multiversal Personifications / Queen of Nevers / 1st Firmament
4) Ultimate Nullifier / M’kraan crystal
5) Beyonders / Engine Room of creation
6) Composite Molecule Man
7) HOTU
8) Living Tribunal
9) White Phoenix
10) Infinity Gauntlet
11) Universal incarnations of Eternity / Infinity / Oblivion / Death
12) Order / Chaos / Abraxas / Marquis of Death
13) HOM Wanda / Cosmic cubes
14) Adult Franklin / Celestials
15) Vishanti / Elder Gods / Galactus / Cube beings / Average Phoenix host / Low tier Abstracts
16) Inbetweener / Stranger / Tyrant / Knull
17) Skyfathers
18) Sentry
19) Elders of the Universe / Thanos
20) Heralds

Originally posted by MrMind
who is that and what book is it from

The lengths the Defenders had to go through just to catch a brief and cryptic glimpse speaks to the power it presents. The Defenders went outside reality to the remnants of the Second Cosmos where the Beyonders reside, ascended to the White Hot Room from there, fell into the Abyss of the Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be, were rescued by the Neverqueen into the Land of Can-Be-Shall-Be and visited the House of Ideas where TOAA resides.

All that, just for a scrap of knowledge.

Originally posted by cdtm
Meant UN.

It's just a feat with a scope of destruction/creation that is unmatched.

Originally posted by cdtm
Isn't LT supposed to be guarding the multiverse anyways? Figured he was stronger then Multi-Eternity. LT was always the apex abstract, the last line of defense.

So maybe every instance of Living Tribunal in the past was just a sliver of the Living Tribunal's multiversal totality? Convenient. But not exactly implausible.

Originally posted by Astner
It's eerie that I agree with the main outline of ODG's post. There are certain characters whose placements don't make much sense at all, e.g. Abraxas and the Cube Beings. I'd also place the Lesser Abstracts above Galactus and some of the tiers I'd just put together (like the Aspirants and Celestials, or Maelstorm and the Infinity Gauntlet). But there are a lot of controversial takes there that I agree with, which is refreshing since I every time I see a tier list (be it for Marvel or DC) it ends up being utter trash.

Maelstrom w/ Anomaly & Quantum Bands no-sold Thanos w/ IG. I'd still separate them because that feat renders the two just too starkly distinct.

As for Abraxas, I placed him that high because it appears to me that it took total multiversal destruction/recreation/manipulation to get rid of him. Any other foe could arguably be defeated by just destroying them. Like the Griever at the End of All Things was sh1tting her pants when Franklin Richards pointed the UN at her. But I don't dispute that's ancillary to what Abraxas himself performed on-panel.

Abraxas basically performed feats of destroying/blending the alternate universes of the Marvel Multiverse together passively with his presence. That's kind of like a combination of what Griever at the End of All Things + Demonstaff (except without being within the plot device "Void which exists between the myriad dimensions", a.k.a. the Bleed).

I admit that Galactus' placement was a struggle. Like, Abraxas was held back by Galactus simply existing. But I think Galactus' performance during fights holds as much, if not more, weight than his cosmic significance. In short, if you threw four Mad Celestials into a fight with a well-fed Galactus, Galactus would lose... because he did on-panel. Sorta carries more weight than the fact that Galactus literally holds back a multiversal threat, i.e., Abraxas... ? Is that fair?

Dunno. Hence the conversation.

I could see Cube Beings being reorganized though. I forgot that Doom w/ Galactus' power got wrecked by a single Cosmic Cube. Not even an evolved Cube Being. Then again, the Maker was incapacitated by far less. Evolved Cube Beings barely have any agency.