Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Originally posted by MrMind
astner, you were arguing against dc composite history
you were arguing against vertigo cosmology being included in dc

Gaiman vehemently disagreed with the portrayal of Death of the Endless in Captain Atom #42, and I'm sure he'd disagree with this new portrayal of the Endless that we're about to see.

But more explicitly we have the following example:

Originally posted by Astner
Because **** Alan Moore and his introduction of the Great Darkness where he specifically points out that it's not a fallen angel.

And **** Neil Gaiman's original introduction of Lucifer where he refers to the Great Darkness as a separate entity and the catalyst of the events that lead up to the current state of affairs.

Is it too much to expect a new writer to at the very least have read up on the first appearances of the characters he's writing about?

So even if you were to argue that there are some Vertigo stories that part of the mainline continuity there are essential parts of those stories that are contradicted, and if you were to create a cosmology for DC you can't rely on those contradicted elements or the implications thereof.

It's going to be interesting to see where Waid goes with New History of the DC Universe 1 - 4, because I'm sure it's going to be the last nail in the coffin for a lot of these flimsy ideas that have been floating around.

Well retcons that 'smooth' out contradictions occur all the time in comics, this is nothing new.

I remember when Rage was....well, raging that there was no way Thor had the Thor/Odin force, because it needed Odin to be asleep or some such. Aaron just read that and went 'ah well'.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well retcons that 'smooth' out contradictions occur all the time in comics, this is nothing new.

It's less about figuring out what's going on and more about retrofitting what's there into some kind of framework.

Originally posted by Astner
I'd still argue that the different Vertigo stories are separate continuities and that because of the retcons involved with the injection of these characters and stories into the mainline continuity you can't necessarily rely on what's established in those stories unless you have a cohesive model for it.

Gaiman vehemently disagreed with the portrayal of Death of the Endless in Captain Atom #42, and I'm sure he'd disagree with this new portrayal of the Endless that we're about to see.

But more explicitly we have the following example:

So even if you were to argue that there are some Vertigo stories that part of the mainline continuity there are essential parts of those stories that are contradicted, and if you were to create a cosmology for DC you can't rely on those contradicted elements or the implications thereof.

It's going to be interesting to see where Waid goes with New History of the DC Universe 1 - 4, because I'm sure it's going to be the last nail in the coffin for a lot of these flimsy ideas that have been floating around.

Originally posted by Astner
Sure. But the issue is that people ignore retcons in favor of their own biases, or more particularly try to manufacture some flimsy patchwork model--to justify why a god from DC is stronger than a god from Marvel or vice versa--when said model goes against the active model that's recently or frequently reinforced in the stories.

It's less about figuring out what's going on and more about retrofitting what's there into some kind of framework.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You realise how inconsistent marvel cosmology is, right? I can play the same game too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Coming from a self professed marvel fanboy,

Originally posted by Astner
Sure. But the issue is that people ignore retcons in favor of their own biases, or more particularly try to manufacture some flimsy patchwork model--to justify why a god from DC is stronger than a god from Marvel or vice versa--when said model goes against the active model that's recently or frequently reinforced in the stories.

It's less about figuring out what's going on and more about retrofitting what's there into some kind of framework.

Well the latest retcon looks like the Endless/Vertigo Lucifer etc are all folded into Prime DC, so we can't ignore that.

Until we then get told 'this didn't happen' or 'that didn't happen', then it's all canon.

Originally posted by Astner
Yeah.

I'm going to need a citation on that.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
0MG!!!!11 what comic?

But we also have the power of a million exploding suns on our side.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
We (symbios schitzoprenia) do have the power of a million exploding suns.

But then again, only a DC fanboy would be able to point out a Marvel one, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well the latest retcon looks like the Endless/Vertigo Lucifer etc are all folded into Prime DC, so we can't ignore that.

Not to mention that Perpetua, an established finite being, predates them, and likely ranks above them on the cosmic totem pole. So this doesn't make Perpetua more powerful than we previous thought--because her limits well established and recent--it makes everyone below her weaker.

Abhi alluded to something similar with Marvel, and I agree. The more the writers involve the cosmic beings in (relatively) mundane stories the more grounded they become.

Sue vs vampires, and Reed vs Cenobites:

Originally posted by Astner
The issue would be that they're reduced, they're no longer the metaphysical pillars Gaiman wrote them to be, and the Universe they inhabit isn't existence in its entirety but only a small part of it. Lucifer is in an even more precarious position because of his whole shaper schtick.

Not to mention that Perpetua, an established finite being, predates them, and likely ranks above them on the cosmic totem pole. So this doesn't make Perpetua more powerful than we previous thought--because her limits well established and recent--it makes everyone below her weaker.

Abhi alluded to something similar with Marvel, and I agree. The more the writers involve the cosmic beings in (relatively) mundane stories the more grounded they become.

Originally posted by Astner
The issue would be that they're reduced, they're no longer the metaphysical pillars Gaiman wrote them to be, and the Universe they inhabit isn't existence in its entirety but only a small part of it. Lucifer is in an even more precarious position because of his whole shaper schtick.

Not to mention that Perpetua, an established finite being, predates them, and likely ranks above them on the cosmic totem pole. So this doesn't make Perpetua more powerful than we previous thought--because her limits well established and recent--it makes everyone below her weaker.

Abhi alluded to something similar with Marvel, and I agree. The more the writers involve the cosmic beings in (relatively) mundane stories the more grounded they become.

I mean, sans feats, just because one is older doesn't make one more powerful. It's an implication, sure, but that's all it is.

And agreed on the number of showings increasing the relative flatness of power levels.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Where's Perpetua written as a finite being?

"You're getting tired, my queen, I can sense it. All the remaining Crisis Energy was redirected to me."

"Maybe so...but your strength is limited as well."

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well the latest retcon looks like the Endless/Vertigo Lucifer etc are all folded into Prime DC, so we can't ignore that.

Until we then get told 'this didn't happen' or 'that didn't happen', then it's all canon.

Sounds like everything is cannon now 👆

Originally posted by Astner
Dark Nights: Death Metal #6.

"You're getting tired, my queen, I can sense it. All the remaining [b]Crisis Energy was redirected to me."

"Maybe so...but your strength is limited as well." [/B]

And if you want to play that game, nobody, not even TOAA is infinite in marvel.

Originally posted by Astner
I'd still argue that the different Vertigo stories are separate continuities and that because of the retcons involved with the injection of these characters and stories into the mainline continuity you can't necessarily rely on what's established in those stories unless you have a cohesive model for it.

Gaiman vehemently disagreed with the portrayal of Death of the Endless in Captain Atom #42, and I'm sure he'd disagree with this new portrayal of the Endless that we're about to see.

But more explicitly we have the following example:

So even if you were to argue that there are some Vertigo stories that part of the mainline continuity there are essential parts of those stories that are contradicted, and if you were to create a cosmology for DC you can't rely on those contradicted elements or the implications thereof.

It's going to be interesting to see where Waid goes with New History of the DC Universe 1 - 4, because I'm sure it's going to be the last nail in the coffin for a lot of these flimsy ideas that have been floating around.

you stand by your words even though you are wrong, that's respect from me 👆

edit: this is sincere, no sarcasm

Originally posted by Senor Cage
Sounds like everything is cannon now 👆

it's not now, it has been this way for the past couple years, marvel fans are just slow to catch on

Perpetua and DK have limits? Insane

{Snip}

No more political-talk in this thread.

-Galan