Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Started by MrMind1,926 pages

when comparing Marvel and DC: the conceptual layering and qualitative difference of higher dimensions/realms, even within a single Multiverse. DC tends to emphasize this more explicitly and consistently.

Let's break down why DC often feels "bigger" even at the Multiversal level, and how Marvel's scaling differs:

DC's Multiversal Scaling - Emphasis on Qualitative Transcendence:

DC's cosmology, heavily influenced by Grant Morrison and expanded by Scott Snyder, uses its dimensional layers not just as "bigger space" but as higher conceptual states of existence.

Third Dimension (The Multiverse): This is our familiar infinite collection of universes, each with its own space and time.

Sphere of the Gods: This realm transcends the concepts of space and time of the individual universes. New Gods viewing mortal universes as "bubbles" or mere "atoms" isn't just a size difference; it's a qualitative difference in existence. Their reality operates on a higher conceptual plane where the laws of the 3rd Dimension don't fully apply. Think of it less as being "larger" in volume and more as being "more real" or fundamental.

Fourth Dimension (Monitor Sphere): This is another step up. The Monitors view the entire 3rd-dimensional Multiverse (the infinite universes and the Sphere of the Gods within it) as a mere "germ" or a "fiction." This isn't just a size difference; it's a difference in ontological status. The Monitors exist at a level where the Multiverse they observe is like a tiny, contained construct to them. They perceive its entirety as a singular, small thing.

Fifth Dimension (Imagination): The 5th Dimension, home of the Imps like Mr. Mxyzptlk, explicitly transcends the 4th Dimension. It's the realm of pure imagination where concepts instantly manifest as reality. To a 5th Dimensional being, the entire Multiverse and its Monitors are like a story being played out, a mere thought. Their powers derive from being closer to the raw conceptual fabric of reality.

Sixth Dimension: This is the realm of Multiverse-forging, where beings like Perpetua and the World Forger design and construct Multiverses. This is a realm of ultimate possibility and meta-creation within the larger Omniverse. It conceptually dwarfs the 5th Dimension, which in turn dwarfs the 4th, and so on.

Key takeaway for DC: The jump between each "dimension" or "layer" isn't just about volume; it's about a fundamental shift in the nature of reality, perception, and power. Each layer views the one below it as increasingly insignificant, akin to fiction or a mere idea.

Marvel's Multiversal Scaling - Emphasis on Scale and Hierarchy:

Marvel also has immense scale, but its "layers" often feel more like increasingly vast domains or more fundamental building blocks, rather than explicit conceptual transcendence where one layer views the one below as "fiction."

Third Dimensional Multiverse: Infinite universes, each potentially infinite in size.

Superflow/Neutral Zone: These are the spaces between the universes. They are vast and complex, containing abstract concepts, but they are still essentially part of the same Multiversal structure.

The Beyond Realm: This is a crucial point for Marvel's scale. The Beyonders, even after Secret Wars II was retconned in terms of their origin, are still presented as beings from "beyond" the Multiverse, capable of manipulating it on a grand scale. While the "droplet of water" metaphor was initially from Secret Wars II, the sense of them being vastly superior to the Multiverse they interact with remains. Their realm exists outside of and dwarfs the Multiverse.

White Hot Room: As the remnant of the First Cosmos and the Phoenix's true home, it exists outside the current Multiverse's cycles of destruction and rebirth. It's primordial and immensely powerful, transcending the Multiverse.

House of Ideas: This is the absolute conceptual wellspring. It contains all ideas, all stories, and thus all of existence. It's the "mind" of the One Above All.

Where the Difference Lies:

Explicit Hierarchical Perception: DC explicitly shows entities from higher dimensions perceiving lower dimensions as fundamentally less real or significant (germs, bubbles, fiction, thoughts). This qualitative difference is consistently portrayed.

"Bounded" Infinity vs. Recursive Infinity: While both have infinite universes, DC introduces the concept of infinite Multiverses within the Omniverse, with each of those Multiverses having its own nested hierarchy. This "infinity of infinities" (or rather, "infinity of sets of infinities"😉 adds a layer of conceptual vastness that Marvel's current main cosmology, focused on a single iterating Multiverse, doesn't always replicate at the same scale. While some fan interpretations for Marvel argue for recursive infinities, it's not as explicitly stated or consistently portrayed in the narrative as in DC's modern run.

Conclusion on "Bigger Scale" within a Single Multiverse:

Even within a single Multiverse (like Perpetua's creation in DC), DC often portrays a more profoundly tiered and qualitatively transcendent hierarchy. The explicit statements of higher dimensions viewing lower ones as increasingly insignificant (germs, fiction, thoughts) creates a sense of boundless layers of ontological superiority that isn't as consistently or explicitly presented in Marvel, even with its own powerful cosmic realms.

While Marvel's highest realms (House of Ideas, White Hot Room) are immensely powerful and conceptual, the narrative doesn't always give us characters within them expressing the same kind of extreme, qualitative dismissal of the Multiverse below them that DC's 4th, 5th, and 6th dimensional beings do. The Beyonders are an exception in Marvel with their explicit disregard for the Multiverse, but DC layers this perception across multiple tiers.

My boy Godzilla is just racking up feats, most of the stories and art is kind of shit but Godzilla is Thor wasn't to bad.

Thor has some universe level damage output and Godzilla has insane durability and damage soak plus casually shattering planets.

Galaxy level superstorms, and he was eating them. Was a great issue.

It said all across infinity but then turned into a galaxy sized superstore.

I haven't kept up with immortal thor, it got kind of boring tbh.

It was every storm in the entire universe (and possibly even the realities connected to the World Tree?) condensed into a galaxy sized superstorm.

The All Storm

Sorry, just saw this...

Originally posted by Sheev
Does anyone here follow the Star wars High Republic comics? I'm up to date with most of the novels, but it seems like you're missing quite a bit if you don't keep up with the comics as well since it's a big multimedia project.

Are there any good starting points or particular comics I should read? I just checked out the supposed reading order and its overwhelming. 😖

Many of the novels and comics are interwoven(the comics supplement the novels), but if you've already read the novels, then just read the comics sequentially(starting at Phase I/issue #1 of the main Marvel series, and continuing through Phase III/current.) You'll also want to read the Adventures(IDW/Dark Horse) line in each Phase -- it's really good, and ties-into the novels and [Marvel] comics as well.

After that you can go back and read the minis from each Phase. Some I'd recommend are:
-The Blade. Easily my favorite series of all the Phases so far. Just a great standalone story that also wanks the christ out of my boy Porter Engle. 👆
-Trail of Shadows.
-Eye of the Storm.
-The Monster of Temple Peak.
-The Nameless Terror.
-The Edge of Balance.
-Shadows of Starlight.
-Echoes of Fear.
-The Battle of Eriadu.

It's a lot, but definitely worth it if you're a fan of this SW era. 👆

Aaron Kuder's artwork is definitely growing on me.

Found it funny that Jason Aaron littered so many references to current Marvel continuity. Punisher being the Fist of the Hand. Sif guarding the Bifrost. Thor being All-Father and having defeated Toranos. Totally unnecessary but y'know, why not?

And as opposed to other Godzilla crossovers, they just went all-in on Godzilla being a monstrous force of destruction (courtesy of the Hand's corruption). Like the other Marvel crossovers had Godzilla being a misunderstood monster who ends up helping. Not here, nope.

Originally posted by ODG
Aaron Kuder's artwork is definitely growing on me.
👆 I started becoming a fan back in Pak's AC run. It isn't the best artwork, but it meshes really well with certain stories.

Originally posted by ODG
Aaron Kuder's artwork is definitely growing on me.

Found it funny that Jason Aaron littered so many references to current Marvel continuity. Punisher being the Fist of the Hand. Sif guarding the Bifrost. Thor being All-Father and having defeated Toranos. Totally unnecessary but y'know, why not?

And as opposed to other Godzilla crossovers, they just went all-in on Godzilla being a monstrous force of destruction (courtesy of the Hand's corruption). Like the other Marvel crossovers had Godzilla being a misunderstood monster who ends up helping. Not here, nope.

Not sure how big of a Godzilla fan you are but they are using different iterations of movie Godzillas. So far they have used the smaller versions (and good versions) only being about 150ft tall. And they had to make him even smallwr to fight the Hulk for some reason.They have used the original, showa and millennial versions until Thor.

This is a specifically evil Godzilla called GMK, he is an evil monster deity who only destroys. He only appeared in one movie. It's apparently in looks only as they have acted like it's all the same one though throughout the miniseries.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Not sure how big of a Godzilla fan you are but they are using different iterations of movie Godzillas. So far they have used the smaller versions (and good versions) only being about 150ft tall. And they had to make him even smallwr to fight the Hulk for some reason.They have used the original, showa and millennial versions until Thor.

This is a specifically evil Godzilla called GMK, he is an evil monster deity who only destroys. He only appeared in one movie. It's apparently in looks only as they have acted like it's all the same one though throughout the miniseries.

The Hulk fight was such a letdown. It could have been just as good as this Thor issue. 🙁

I thought they were all garbage besides the Thor one tbh.

And the New Avengers one was pretty funny.

Originally posted by Infinaut616
The Hulk fight was such a letdown. It could have been just as good as this Thor issue. 🙁

I agree. It was absolutely garbage.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Not sure how big of a Godzilla fan you are but they are using different iterations of movie Godzillas. So far they have used the smaller versions (and good versions) only being about 150ft tall. And they had to make him even smallwr to fight the Hulk for some reason.They have used the original, showa and millennial versions until Thor.

This is a specifically evil Godzilla called GMK, he is an evil monster deity who only destroys. He only appeared in one movie. It's apparently in looks only as they have acted like it's all the same one though throughout the miniseries.

Ohhhhh. 👆

Pretty much every Godzilla movie I've watched kinda had that "misunderstood noble monster" trope to it.

Cool that this Godzilla incarnation was very much steeped in history. Makes more sense for all those random Marvel continuity callbacks because Aaron is also calling back to specific Godzilla continuity.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
I thought they were all garbage besides the Thor one tbh.

And the New Avengers one was pretty funny.

👆 thor issue was great. the rest have been steamy ass.

Galan, what's your answer to this question...

I'm not sure how strong Optimus Prime is. 👆

Need a mod ruling on that, tbh 👇

I'll email Tron. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not sure how strong Optimus Prime is. 👆

Lol... the other question