Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Started by MrMind1,926 pages
Originally posted by darthgoober
If I were still directly involved I would want them banned before I would want what you yourself seem to be suggesting... absolutely. On the other hand I would have no problem looking at them and applying logic and common sense.

by the same logic, everything from marvel pre-2015 secret wars feats should be banned as well. marvel rebooted after secret wars and franklin/owen recreated the multiverse anew, the cosmic beings are all reborn and not their old selves anymore, and their status have been changed. in fact the new multiverse owen/franklin created isn't even infinite.

but that's neither here nor there. all I'm saying is we shouldn't apply double standard on both companies because that's hypocrisy

me as a dc fan acknowledge composite marvel, you marvel fans should acknowledge composite dc

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Which is what I'm saying....you posted a lot of information but didn't really give a clean format, so people have hard time to understand what are you trying to argue here

well if they read it a couple times they should understand

im not gonna dumb down my arguments for dummies who just got into dc comics

you guys are all experts on these subjects so you should understand what i am saying right?

Originally posted by MrMind
by the same logic, everything from marvel pre-2015 secret wars feats should be banned as well. marvel rebooted after secret wars and franklin/owen recreated the multiverse anew, the cosmic beings are all reborn and not their old selves anymore, and their status have been changed. in fact the new multiverse owen/franklin created isn't even infinite.

but that's neither here nor there. all I'm saying is we shouldn't apply double standard on both companies because that's hypocrisy

me as a dc fan acknowledge composite marvel, you marvel fans should acknowledge composite dc


That would be a fair case to make if they restarted stuff in a way that shifts the whole continuity like you're saying. I didn't even read the arc so I have no idea, but if so I don't know why everyone wouldn't start fresh like with COIE or the New 52.

Originally posted by MrMind
well if they read it a couple times they should understand

im not gonna dumb down my arguments for dummies who just got into dc comics

you guys are all experts on these subjects so you should understand what i am saying right?


Yes, it just seems to me darthgoober isn't really aware of current things regarding both Marvel and DC, so I feel maybe the replies should be clearer

Originally posted by darthgoober
That would be a fair case to make if they restarted stuff in a way that shifts the whole continuity like you're saying. I didn't even read the arc so I have no idea, but if so I don't know why everyone wouldn't start fresh like with COIE or the New 52.

no that's not a fair case to make because that's not how battleboard works

especially since it's shown time and time again in dc, characters remember their past event before the crisis and we have specific on panel evidence of characters got all their memories back, memories from before flashpoint, memories from before COIE

same thing with marvel

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yes, it just seems to me darthgoober isn't really aware of current things regarding both Marvel and DC, so I feel maybe the replies should be clearer

No worries, I always try make it clear that I'm not sure of anything in the current continuity and am only answering specific things posted by people, but I guess I don't pronounce it enough. I remain ignorant of day to day details of both companies by choice. Haven't read a DC comic cover to cover since New 52 started, and have opened anything from Marvel that wasn't staring Surfer since Captain Hydra. In both cases I channeled my inner Cartman to say "screw you guys, I'm going home" lol

Originally posted by MrMind
no that's not a fair case to make because that's not how battleboard works

especially since it's shown time and time again in dc, characters remember their past event before the crisis and we have specific on panel evidence of characters got all their memories back, memories from before flashpoint, memories from before COIE

same thing with marvel


This battle board very clearly demonstrated that's how it works when it acknowledged the New 52 as being different. They got basic stuff grandfathered in so they could be intelligently debated, but specific feats had to wait until they manifested. So yeah, if Marvel retconned everyone in the entire universe then you guys should have been b*tching this whole time.

So, we got 3 versions of Wildstorm?

Version 1 is MAIN Wildstorm universe

Then you got the DCnU WS versions like Warblade here

And WildCATS latest series (which was horrible) set on the main DCU earth

And Warren Ellis's reboot of The Wild Storm (Which had many DCU easter eggs throughout the series)

Originally posted by darthgoober
This battle board very clearly demonstrated that's how it works when it acknowledged the New 52 as being different. They got basic stuff grandfathered in so they could be intelligently debated, but specific feats had to wait until they manifested. So yeah, if Marvel retconned everyone in the entire universe then you guys should have been b*tching this whole time.

new52 being different character was only from 2011-2018 ish

after doomsday clock and death metal, everything counts so all dc characters are composite

this has been confirmed many times on this forum, on comicvine, on vsbattles, across the internet

you are just ill informed because your knowledge still stuck from 10 years ago, so keep quiet on this subject since you are out of your depth

we only let marvel fanboys post new 52 specific superman vs marvel characters threads because we don't want superman or hal jordan soloing the entire avengers and x-men lineup with their composite feats. but reality is they can. it's just to consider marvel fanboys feeling.

so stop going back in circle darth, you are just making a fool out of yourself

if you contend this, we can battlezone and prove who is right

I take the stand that current dc main universe characters are composite, you claim only everything after flashpoint count

are you game?

Originally posted by MrMind
new52 being different character was only from 2011-2018 ish

after doomsday clock and death metal, everything counts so all dc characters are composite

this has been confirmed many times on this forum, on comicvine, on vsbattles, across the internet

you are just ill informed because your knowledge still stuck from 10 years ago, so keep quiet on this subject since you are out of your depth

we only let marvel fanboys post new 52 specific superman vs marvel characters threads because we don't want superman or hal jordan soloing the entire avengers and x-men lineup with their composite feats. but reality is they can. it's just to consider marvel fanboys feeling.

so stop going back in circle darth, you are just making a fool out of yourself

if you contend this, we can battlezone and prove who is right

I take the stand that current dc main universe characters are composite, you claim only everything after flashpoint count

are you game?


Why would I claim only that counts, I don't follow the continuity. My original statement was based on what you posted, not my own opinion of DC continuity. My opinion is simply "too dumb to follow anymore".

You seem to want to imply some kind of bias on my part but as I just demonstrated, I have no problem holding every company to the same standards.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Why would I claim only that counts, I don't follow the continuity. My original statement was based on what you posted, not my own opinion of DC continuity. My opinion is simply "too dumb to follow anymore".

You seem to want to imply some kind of bias on my part but as I just demonstrated, I have no problem holding every company to the same standards.

the same standard should be both marvel and dc are composite

but you are entitled to your opinion 👆

Originally posted by MrMind
the same standard should be both marvel and dc are composite

but you are entitled to your opinion 👆


Yeah that sounds wrong to me but I let others do their own thing. I realized a long time ago that being on the spectrum means no one else is likely to see things through the same lense I am because for me there's a "right way" to interpret stuff and even if I can consciously understand that people are reading things differently than me, I can't really understand why.

I said that wrong, I don't really have an issue acknowledging multiple interpretations. It's more that there's a "right way" to apply logic in one's interpretation than it is about there being only one interpretation.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah that sounds wrong to me but I let others do their own thing. I realized a long time ago that being on the spectrum means no one else is likely to see things through the same lense I am because for me there's a "right way" to interpret stuff and even if I can consciously understand that people are reading things differently than me, I can't really understand why.

but you obviously don't know what you are talking about and purposely ignoring the evidences shown in the last couple pages, and you obviously never read doomsday clock and death metal

like I said you are entitled to your wrong opinion but this is borderline trolling, but you do you though

Originally posted by MrMind
but you obviously don't know what you are talking about and purposely ignoring the evidences shown in the last couple pages, and you obviously never read doomsday clock and death metal

like I said you are entitled to your wrong opinion but this is borderline trolling, but you do you though


No I'm just reading it differently than you. I don't understand your way any more than you understand mine. As for DD Clock and Death Metal... I specifically mentioned exactly when I stopped reading DC comics so you saying that is a pretty clear demonstration of who's ignoring what's being posted lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
No I'm just reading it differently than you. I don't understand your way any more than you understand mine. As for DD Clock and Death Metal... I specifically mentioned exactly when I stopped reading DC comics so you saying that is a pretty clear demonstration of who's ignoring what's being posted lol

so you just said you didn't read the materials about the topic being discussed yet you have the gal to continue being so confident in " hey this is just your opinion man! you just don't understand my point hurrr durr"

"this is my intepretation and you can't convince me otherwise!" is a pathetic hill to die on

all you're really doing is closing your eyes, covering your ears and yelling a wtong opinion. You aren't convincing anybody that you're right, especially when your opponents are providing evidence that you're wrong

Originally posted by MrMind
so you just said you didn't read the materials about the topic being discussed yet you have the gal to continue being so confident in " hey this is just your opinion man! you just don't understand my point hurrr durr"

"this is my intepretation and you can't convince me otherwise!" is a pathetic hill to die on

all you're really doing is closing your eyes, covering your ears and yelling a wtong opinion. You aren't convincing anybody that you're right, especially when your opponents are providing evidence that you're wrong


"Gal to continue being so confident"... I feel like you take things too personally lol

Originally posted by MrMind

he is obviously wrong and shouldn't be taken seriously

So....don't?

Ordering these Marvel cosmic realms from top to bottom, based on current interpretations, especially those heavily influenced by Al Ewing's work (e.g., Defenders Beyond), would look like this:

House of Ideas: This is the absolute apex. It's the ultimate source of all creation, concepts, and stories in the Marvel Omniverse. It's essentially the mind of the One Above All, the supreme being. All other realms and realities are born from or contained within its conceptual framework.

White Hot Room (The Mystery/The Above Place): While intricately linked to the Phoenix Force, recent revelations (again, largely from Al Ewing) place the White Hot Room as a significant part of "The Mystery" or "The Above Place." It's understood as the remnants of the very First Cosmos and a place of primal creation, representing the "idea" of creation, life, and rebirth. It sits conceptually just below the House of Ideas.

The Beyond Realm (The Beyonders' Realm / The Far Shore): This is the domain of the Beyonders, the immensely powerful extra-dimensional beings who were responsible for the destruction of previous Multiverses (specifically the Second Cosmos). It exists outside of the standard Multiverse and is a realm of immense power, but it is ultimately subordinate to the White Hot Room and the House of Ideas. It's often conceptualized as the "engine room" of creation for previous cosmos.

The Neutral Zone / Exo-Space: This is a conceptual "buffer zone" or "space between spaces" that exists within the larger Multiverse but separates individual realities. It's often depicted as a void or a realm where positive and negative matter can coexist without annihilating each other. It acts as a barrier, preventing uncontrolled interaction between universes and sometimes leading to dangerous incursions if breached.

The Superflow: The Superflow is the space between the individual universes within the Marvel Multiverse. It's a sort of psychic or informational conduit where concepts and abstract entities can manifest. It's the "stuff" that fills the gaps between the bubbles of individual universes. While vast and containing abstract concepts, it is still contained within the larger Multiversal structure.

Marvel Multiverse: This is the collection of all alternate universes that readers are familiar with, including Earth-616 (the primary Marvel Universe) and countless other realities (Earth-1610, Earth-TRNXXX, etc.). Each universe is its own self-contained reality with its own set of physics, histories, and inhabitants. The Multiverse itself is a vast, ever-expanding collection of these individual universes.

Simplified Order from Top to Bottom:

House of Ideas (Ultimate source of all)

White Hot Room (Primal creation, remnants of the First Cosmos, part of "The Mystery"😉

The Beyond Realm (Home of the Beyonders, tied to the Second Cosmos)

The Neutral Zone / Exo-Space (Buffer between universes within the Multiverse)

The Superflow (Space and conceptual conduit between universes)

Marvel Multiverse (The collection of all individual universes)

It's important to note that Marvel's cosmology can be incredibly complex and subject to writer interpretation, but this order reflects the most recent and comprehensive attempts to map out these high-level realms.

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Okay, let's map out the DC Comics cosmology based on your provided points, incorporating the generally accepted hierarchical structure. DC's cosmology, especially in recent years with Scott Snyder's Justice League and Grant Morrison's various works, has become incredibly intricate.

The Overvoid / The Primal Monitor: Still the absolute highest. It's the blank page, the boundless canvas upon which all of creation, including infinite multiverses, is drawn. The Primal Monitor is its self-aware aspect.

The Great Darkness: The primordial anti-creation force, often seen as emerging from the Overvoid's primal "flaw" or opposite. It's a fundamental aspect of reality's absolute deepest level.

The Presence's Creation / The Omniverse (beyond the Source Wall): This is where the crucial distinction comes in. The "Source Wall" as we knew it (which contained our 52-universe Multiverse) is now understood to be just one layer within a much, much larger construct. The true "Omniverse" contains potentially infinite Multiverses, each created by different "Super-Celestials" or similar cosmic entities, with Perpetua's creation being just one of these countless Multiverses.

Within this larger Omniverse, you would then have the various dimensional layers that apply to each individual Multiverse. The specific levels you mentioned (Sixth Dimension, Fifth Dimension, Fourth Dimension, Sphere of the Gods) primarily pertain to Perpetua's particular Multiverse.

Infinite Multiverses (e.g., Perpetua's Creation, and countless others): This is the key. The DC reality isn't just one Multiverse of 52 (or even infinitely expanding universes within that one Multiverse). Instead, there are infinite Multiverses, each a collection of universes, and each possibly governed by its own foundational principles or "creation teams" like Perpetua and her sons. The Chronicler and the Fuginauts exist at this level, traveling between these distinct Multiverses within the larger Omniverse. The Chronicler's book documenting "trillions of dead multiverses" directly supports this, indicating that Perpetua's current Multiverse is merely one iteration among an incomprehensibly vast number that have existed and perished.

The Sixth Dimension: This is the realm of Multiverse-forging (like Perpetua's workshop), but specifically for a Multiverse. It's a plane of high-level creation and design that operates on the Multiversal scale.

The Fifth Dimension: The dimension of imagination, whose influence can ripple down into the universes.

The Fourth Dimension (The Monitor Sphere / Limbo): The observational plane for a Multiverse, where the Monitors (like those who observed Perpetua's Multiverse) reside.

The Sphere of the Gods (The Bleed): The conceptual space that surrounds and connects the universes within a specific Multiverse, containing the divine realms.

The Third Dimensional Infinite Universes (The DC Multiverse - e.g., Earth-0, Earth-2, etc.): The individual universes that constitute a single Multiverse.

Revised and Expanded Order (Top to Bottom):

The Overvoid / The Primal Monitor (The ultimate void/canvas)

The Great Darkness (Primordial anti-force within the Overvoid)

The Omniverse / The Presence's Creation (containing infinite Multiverses)

Chronicler / Fuginaut's Realm (The "space" between distinct Multiverses, where entities that traverse them reside. They observe and sometimes interact with individual Multiverses.)

Infinite Multiverses (Each a distinct cosmic construct, like "Perpetua's Multiverse" or countless others, often with their own internal hierarchies below this point. This is where the Chronicler sees trillions of dead ones.)

The Sixth Dimension (e.g., Perpetua's forging realm for her Multiverse)

The Fifth Dimension (Realm of imagination for that Multiverse)

The Fourth Dimension (The Monitor Sphere / Limbo) (Observational layer for that Multiverse)

The Sphere of the Gods (The Bleed) (Higher-dimensional realms and connecting layer for that Multiverse)

The Third Dimensional Infinite Universes (The DC Multiverse) (The collection of individual universes like Earth-0, Earth-2, etc., that make up one specific Multiverse.)

This revised structure better accounts for Snyder's revelations about the scale of the Omniverse and the existence of multiple, distinct Multiverses beyond just the one we primarily follow. Perpetua's creation is a multiverse within the larger omniverse.

When comparing the scale of DC and Marvel cosmologies, it's a battle of infinite infinities, and the "winner" often comes down to the most expansive and abstract interpretations of their respective highest tiers. However, with the recent clarifications in both companies' narratives, we can make a more informed comparison:

DC Comics Cosmology (as per recent Snyder/Morrison/Ewing works):

The Overvoid / Primal Monitor: This is the ultimate "blank page" upon which all of DC's creation exists. It's often described as pure nothingness/everythingness, a self-aware conceptual space that contains all. It's arguably the most boundless and fundamental concept in either cosmology.

The Great Darkness: A primordial, fundamental force existing within or as an aspect of the Overvoid, predating even the Presence's creation. Its scope is truly omniversal.

The Omniverse (The Presence's Creation): This is the crucial layer. It's now explicitly stated to contain infinite Multiverses. Perpetua's creation is just one of these infinite Multiverses. The Chronicler's observations of "trillions of dead multiverses" further emphasize this scale. This means there are not just infinite universes within one Multiverse, but infinite collections of universes (Multiverses) all existing within this larger Omniverse.

Dimensional Hierarchy within each Multiverse: The Sixth, Fifth, Fourth Dimensions, and the Sphere of the Gods exist as higher planes within each of these individual Multiverses.

Marvel Comics Cosmology (as per recent Al Ewing works):

House of Ideas: The ultimate source of all stories, concepts, and creation in Marvel. It's the "mind" of the One Above All. It's presented as the ultimate origin point, above all iterations of the Multiverse.

Cosmic Iterations / Cosmos: Marvel's cosmology is fundamentally cyclical, with the Multiverse being reborn in new "Cosmoses." We are currently in the Eighth Cosmos. The House of Ideas exists above all of these iterations.

White Hot Room: This realm is now connected to the remnants of the First Cosmos, indicating its primordial nature and transcending the current Multiverse, but still originating from the House of Ideas.

The Beyond Realm: The domain of the Beyonders, powerful beings from outside the current Multiverse, responsible for destroying previous ones. It's a high-tier realm, but explicitly below the White Hot Room.

The Multiverse: Marvel's Multiverse also contains an infinite number of universes (often depicted as a vast "Omniverse" informally, but more precisely as an infinite Multiverse).

Comparison:

Top Tier (Absolute Blank Slate): Both have a similar concept. DC's Overvoid (Primal Monitor) is a literal blank page/void that contains everything. Marvel's House of Ideas is the source of all creative concepts and ultimately the "mind" of TOAA, implying a similar foundational nature. It's hard to definitively say which conceptual "blank slate" is "bigger" as they represent similar philosophical ultimates.

Beyond Multiverse Level:

DC: The key differentiator for DC is the explicit statement of infinite Multiverses within the larger Omniverse, each potentially containing its own infinite universes and dimensional hierarchies (like Perpetua's). The Chronicler's role reinforces this. This creates a hyper-infinity of realities.

Marvel: Marvel's cosmology, while vast, tends to focus on the cyclical destruction and rebirth of one Multiverse (the Cosmoses), which itself contains infinite universes. While there are realms above the current Multiverse (White Hot Room, Beyonders' Realm), they usually relate to that single, iterating Multiversal structure. The concept of "infinite Multiverses" in the same vein as DC's Death Metal hasn't been as explicitly layered.

Conclusion:

Based on the most recent and expansive interpretations, DC Comics' cosmology appears to be conceptually larger.

The explicit confirmation of infinite Multiverses (each a collection of infinite universes) within the DC Omniverse, where Perpetua's creation is just one of many, arguably scales it beyond Marvel's model of a single, albeit infinitely varied and iterating, Multiverse. While Marvel has realms above its Multiverse, the "nested infinite Multiverses" concept in DC provides an additional layer of boundless scale.

It's a subtle distinction at the highest tiers, as both are effectively "boundless" in their own ways. However, DC's recent emphasis on an Omniverse composed of infinite Multiverses pushes its theoretical size a notch further.