Originally posted by -Pr-I honestly don't see comics as more Agenda driven than the past PR. Gaiman was always putting Gay and Transgender characters in Sandman. Black Orchid had similar shit going on. The anti-Thatcher anti Reaghan rhetoric in Miracleman was classic. Miracleman fronts her up in Olympus when he decides to interfere in the free market, that's after he has sent all nukes to the Sun, and before he crushes all militant religions and George Bush Senior ends up therapy, dreaming of killing rabbits and waking up aroused. Early Hellblazer was set against the 80's National Front Vs. Anti-Nazi League, he beats a young skinhead up for harassing the corner shop "paki". I really could go on, but that was the 80's and early 90's. I think perhaps more mainstream books have agendas but then, again do I. Anyone remember the Black Panther with the KKK lynching, Northstar being gay, etc... These were probably far more agenda-driven and shocking than anything today, the difference is the recent rise in strange Right-Wing idea's on the internet imho.
There's nothing wrong with making weird changes... in the comics. You want to let someone else be Superman for a while? Go ahead. You can make them whatever ethnicity/sexuality you want. Go nuts.But like Stan Lee said: Peter Parker's a white, nerdy, straight guy from Queens.
Spider-Man? That's a different case entirely.
In a movie? Where you're adapting a medium that's as visual as it is literary? No. If you're going to use tentpole characters, you have to remember why they're tentpole characters in the first place. And people might say "well, how would changing their race/sexuality make a difference?", when the truth is, making a change that severe to any character is changing, at least in part, what makes them the character they are.
It's not like when you adapt Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings and have at least some leeway in terms of how characters are supposed to look.
Also, Wolverine is Canadian. Hugh Jackman is Australian. Just thought that was funny. 😛
You don't see how comics are more agenda-driven than they've ever been? Really? I mean, it's not like they're hiding it very well. And yeah, people will say "well, comics were always political/agenda driven". And sure, you have a smidge of an argument there. But the agenda used to be "don't do drugs" or "don't judge people by their race/sexuality".
Comics used to be about making people think. Now it's about making people think what the writers want you to think. And it's not just comics. You see this in sci-fi too.
And as far as Hawkman goes... Eh. If it's Carter Hall I won't like it, but Hawkman being Hawkman, it could be ****ing anything.
Originally posted by krisblazeSo you don't think, George Bush senior appearing in therapy and telling soldiers to kill rabbits and give him money, and telling the therapist he woke up aroused in a comic published the year he became president wasn't agenda-driven? Really?
There's a difference between thematically dealing with a topic and changing characters to suit certain agendas.
That being said, anyone who's ever read a comic by Nocenti should know that the 80s and 90s certainly had their fair share of politics.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
I honestly don't see comics as more Agenda driven than the past PR. Gaiman was always putting Gay and Transgender characters in Sandman. Black Orchid had similar shit going on. The anti-Thatcher anti Reaghan rhetoric in Miracleman was classic. Miracleman fronts her up in Olympus when he decides to interfere in the free market, that's after he has sent all nukes to the Sun, and before he crushes all militant religions and George Bush Senior ends up therapy, dreaming of killing rabbits and waking up aroused. Early Hellblazer was set against the 80's National Front Vs. Anti-Nazi League, he beats a young skinhead up for harassing the corner shop "paki". I really could go on, but that was the 80's and early 90's. I think perhaps more mainstream books have agendas but then, again do I. Anyone remember the Black Panther with the KKK lynching, Northstar being gay, etc... These were probably far more agenda-driven and shocking than anything today, the difference is the recent rise in strange Right-Wing idea's on the internet imho.
I feel like we're talking about different things, tbh.
I mean, yes, I agree that comics have always had some sort of agenda behind them, but I don't believe how they're pushed is necessarily the same. A skilled writer can give you an opinion in a way that makes you think. A bad writer (and there are many nowadays) don't know how to do that, or they're morally bankrupt enough that they show superheroes doing some really shady shit. Superheroes are supposed to be the good guys.
Though I still feel like what you would describe as an "agenda" isn't what I would. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though. Just different Or I could be.
Originally posted by -Pr-I think, I see the culture war as affecting comics. Apart from Ditko and Frank Miller, comic writers have generally been quite liberal. Which is weird as the whole might is right idea of Superhero comics is about as fascistic as it gets. I mean in honesty the whole plot of most superhero comics is a bad guy wants to impose his will on people or he is a superterrorsit who just wants to watch the region, world, universe burn. The good guy wants to impose his will on the bad guy with no checks and balances simply because he can, but it's fine because his agenda is protective. Superheros have always been doing shady shit. Now, these liberal writers like to use the medium to get across ideas of tolerance, which mitigate the basic fascism of Superheroes imo. Recently though, a very vocal group who generally don't like liberal ideas but do like comics don't like comics which had always been the domain of "white boys" crossing over to the mainstream and having something in them for girls and the transgendered, even different ethnic groups. So this trope of SJW stories and why is Brie saying feminist things etc. Well, because she is a feminist. I know you well enough to know you are a tolerant guy, and someone I like on here and think is a decent human being, so maybe I am wrong, maybe I'm right who knows.
I feel like we're talking about different things, tbh.I mean, yes, I agree that comics have always had some sort of agenda behind them, but I don't believe how they're pushed is necessarily the same. A skilled writer can give you an opinion in a way that makes you think. A bad writer (and there are many nowadays) don't know how to do that, or they're morally bankrupt enough that they show superheroes doing some really shady shit. Superheroes are supposed to be the good guys.
Though I still feel like what you would describe as an "agenda" isn't what I would. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though. Just different Or I could be.
Sign of the times...
Its like when the Nazis were getting shietted on daily in the golden age of comics. Or womenz in comics were basically 2nd classish citizens, even superhero womenz...
Just dont give me a black superman or a fem thor unless u have some story behind it. Dont make it a fundamental change.
Originally posted by Sin I AMTerrible example. The absolute worst example you could use. If you were looking through a terrible examples pile, you somehow picked the worst one in your first grab. If you were taking a walk down Good Example Avenue, you would be like "OMG I'm so lost" until you came across Bad Example Avenue and then you'd be like "OMG I made it home!" If you were like:
The whole liberal conservative argument in comics is subjective. Even though I may find Iceman being gay as forced, someone else might relate and find it organic.
"Can someone give me an example of an agenda being pushed on mainstream characters? And explain why they feel it is... genuine answer please"
And then you were like:
"The whole liberal conservative argument in comics is subjective. Even though I may find Iceman being gay as forced, someone else might relate and find it organic."
You would have struck gold in one swing. You knew the best possible example right off the top of your head and still asked the question.
But yes, Iceman being gay after 50 years of random girlfriends and heartache/breakdowns over women could be construed as totally organic because one rogue telepath read his mind when 5 decades of telepaths didn't. Top notch example Sin.
👆
When they make Johnny Storm gay I'll wait for you to be like:
"Well it doesn't make sense to me but it might make sense to some. Really brave from Marvel to follow his story to its conclusion!"