Originally posted by MrMindJiren was using miniscule amounts of power at every stage. Also, SSB Vegeta out performed Hit against a seemingly higher power level Jiren as well. Final Form Frieza outperformed Hit against Dyspo. SSB Goku outperformed Hit against Jiren in a later fight. And Goku first fought Jiren like a retard, but lasted a decent amount of time for how he was fighting.
yet hit performed better against jiren than ssb vegeta and gokuhe did argualy better than goku first time using ultra instinct
he was the only one actually fighting/trading blows with jiren
Also, no he didn't. Goku ran out of power, but was fighting on completely even ground with Jiren, and even gained the upper hand. He also casually dismissed Dyspo (who almost beat Hit), and Toppo (who Goku was willing to go KK against after his Hit fight).
Hit didn't accomplish anything except the time cage. He was blocking and using time skip to try and deflect damage but he wasn't able to trade blows with Jiren, or put him on the backfoot.
All this ignores that Blue Goku was equal in power to Assassin mode Hit as well. And even in those episodes, it shows how deadly Hit is when you don't fully understand him (which Jiren had no experience with), and his powers can make him seem more powerful than he is. Same Goku that got killed by him was exactly equal to him in raw might for example, or at least his raw might is equal to the extent of Hit's powers.
I'm only speaking about raw power - Dambo's "Hit was stronger than Black" - it's unlikely Hit is more powerful than Black. Definitely weaker than Merged Zamasu though, who was the real main boss of the arc.
If you use the manga, then I don't think an argument can be made for Hit at all though.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZFrieza has never sensed Beerus doing anything except blowing away Sidra's energy to my recollection. And considering the retcons to Beerus' power, we know how well he can hide his power level. Simply sensing his resting ki is not the same as his full power.
Are you arguing that Frieza has never felt Beerus’ ki? Because we have no reason to believe Beerus is excluded from the light novel quote.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Frieza has never sensed Beerus doing anything except blowing away Sidra's energy to my recollection. And considering the retcons to Beerus' power, we know how well he can hide his power level. Simply sensing his resting ki is not the same as his full power.
Okay, but then we have to apply the same standard to Goku
Goku presumably sensed the full power of Beerus(or at least something very close to it) in the manga.
The Broly arc happened in the manga as well:
https://i.imgur.com/X1UUbJ1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Vfe9TSG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3sliTZP.jpg
Again, what's the problem?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZThen he wasn't fully going all out then. The anime already has Vados saying Beerus is more powerful though, so there's grounds for that.
Not in the animeUnless Champa is on par with Beerus, in which case everything falls apart
Either way, it's still more of a basis than Frieza has, who has sensed or watched zero Gods fighting. So what we'd be left with from the anime is Goku watching Beerus fight FP Champa, and then judge Beerus from there. That accounts for the dubious nature of him putting Broly above Beerus as well. It's not made definitive, just that it's likely.
Plus, the whole "Fighting a guy who should be thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku" as well. Me and you have discussed this, with varying opinions. Iirc you think Blue would be a 50x boost on Red. Lets give Red a 2x boost on SS3 just to be extremely low here (we worked it out to 120x Buu arc Vegito iirc).
So, Red would be 800x Base Goku, and Blue would be 40000x base Goku. If we assume Base Gogeta was equal to SSB Goku, that would mean that SSB Gogeta was 40000x stronger than SSB Goku post ToP with additional training. Broly was able to take repeated blows from a being of this nature without going down. So... I think it's fair to say he's likely more powerful than Beerus.
Also Dragonball is inconsistent as ****. The exact multiplier in forms has long been forgotten, and the movie was wildly inconsistent as well... same with anime ToP. But I digress.
Every comparison you can possibly make is dubious. That said, I find using the hakaishin as a barometer favours Jiren a lot more than it does Broly.
Also, I think Ultra Instinct is likely to be a greater multiplier than fusion all things made equal, simply due to the fact it's much more highly revered, offers more than a simple power up and requires a lot more out of the user to achieve.
This was sort of alluded to in the Dragon Ball Heroes episodes where MUI does a lot better than Vegito against Cumber (IIRC). Not that its remotely canon, but it represents how I view the two forms.
Also, Goku having that little flick of Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie but never being able to achieve since the tournament, again, tells me that Ultra Instinct is set at a loftier height than fusing with someone of similar strength.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
This was sort of alluded to in the Dragon Ball Heroes episodes where MUI does a lot better than Vegito against Cumber (IIRC). Not that its remotely canon, but it represents how I view the two forms.
Cumber that MUI Goku fought was not only base Cumber but drained base Cumber. It was the weakest Cumber we have seen.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEverUI is more revered than fusion because it is ridiculously difficult to attain -- even for the Gods. That said, LB Jiren showed us that raw power alone can close the UI gap, and SSB Gogeta is, as a conservative estimate, tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than SSB Goku.
Also, I think Ultra Instinct is likely to be a greater multiplier than fusion all things made equal, simply due to the fact it's much more highly revered, offers more than a simple power up and requires a lot more out of the user to achieve.
UI is a haxx amp...but it's definitely not THAT haxx, imo.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
No he wasn't. His power should allow him to beat Black... maybe, but he shouldn't actually be above Black in power.
Especially in the anime when Goku was equal in power to all out Hit, and that same Goku and Vegeta lost to Black.
Yes. He was.
Let's be honest, Hit would punch out his heart and be done with it.
And KI levels might be debatable but when one is clearly the greater threat than the other...I mean, what's left to say other than Hit > Black?
