The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.>
Here you go Alberto, Carver and Stoic. Even bolded the pretty bits for you. Need a little diagram?
Superman fast. Superman will use fast. Hulk not so fast. Hulk not hit.
Thanks alll.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But I'm not ignoring on panel proof.Does Superman possess speed of the level I say he does? Yes. *Insert scan*
Does he possess the intelligence to not get hit? Yes. *Insert scan*
Does he get hit in comics? Yes, of course. *Carver inserts scan*
So how do we use basic logic? When expert MAers, noobs, kids, intelligent animals, even insects know better than to get hit.....That means every time Superman or his ilk get hit BY SOMEONE SLOWER, it's PIS. PLOT based .
EVERY TIME.
Steve Trevor can tag Cheetah. Did she WANT to get hit? Is Steve FASTER than her? Course not. It was for plot.
you could insert scans but the vast amount of support would contradict what you'd show. for every dodge scan you showed, or speed-related perception scan you showed, a 100, a 1000 could contradict it. and the proofs you're ignoring in favor of more mma-based logic are the fights we've actually seen happen between hulk and superman ON PANEL.
no offense intended but you might as well never debate anyone who fights superman ever again unless it's someone with verifiable light speed or greater combat speed because you're only going to give yourself an aneurysm and your stance is well known.
personally i find it to be a very un-entertaining, if valid, way to debate and it must make reading books frustrating seeing pis everywhere you look.
it's interesting though--i thought you were one of the guys who backed batman and the non-pis argument. meaning he's done so much of his batman sh!t so many times and for so long that when he does it, it should no longer be deemed pis. but that doesn't jive with this fascination you have with speed and labeling everything that contradicts anything a person with speed does as pis (though i think the forum rules state that that is expressly NOT the case--speedsters getting hit is NOT auto-pis at all. i could be wrong though but i don't think so....)
or maybe i'm wrong on your stance on batman. /shrug
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I'm curious to hear your opinion Leonidas, where do you draw the line then? Not just in speed but even other abilities/artifacts.
personally, i prefer to use books to rl logic--IN GENERAL. the same reason i think superman gets hit here is the same reason ss doesn't transmute everyone he fights. you hear an argument based on simplicity too often in the forum--speed is basic, speed is much less complicated than transmuting someone. i disagree. flash can throw a 100 000 punches, ss can transmute. if one is easier.... dodging is basic, the desire to not get hit is basic. so is thinking. ss only has to think about transmuting someone. but, when he doesn't no one is calling it pis every time. yet when a speedster gets hit, its pis. every time.
personally, i don't see the distinction. imo, speedsters get hit in comics for many reasons--they underestimate their opponent, they aren't going max speed, they are FALLIBLE, they fall into habits of having to limit their powers around people. all of these are plausible reasons for someone to get hit. or plausible enough imo. superman gets hit because he rarely fears the consequences. his perception can be uber, but in the vast majority of his appearances it is nowhere near flash level. and imagine if flash REALLY saw things the way he is said to. billions--trillions, more?--years would pass for him before someone finished a sentence. the fact that he exchanges quips with enemies tells you all you need to know about how fast he's actually--in rl--seeing and sensing things. imagine talking to someone whose words actually take YEARS to be completed. and yet we don't look at THAT rl bit of logic. we only look at the hax powa speed gives any forum character.
if they get hit in comics, they should be able to get hit in a forum imo. but it's a slippery slope with speedsters and there IS no good way to reconcile flash. superman? he isn't flash.
bottom line for me--books should be the single best general gauge. if i can't use a superman vs hulk fight to get a sense of how a fight would go, again, what's the point of using comics at all? if someone is faster, they won't get hit. period. like i said, maybe a valid forum strategy, but certainly not an entertaining one and one that i think really divorces the characters from the medium that gave us everything about them.
maybe not a popular stance, but, meh. /shrug
Originally posted by panthergod
Superman gets hit because that's in his character to choose to withstand/absorb attacks until he can gauge his opponents level of power/formidability. Period. Anyone saying otherwise has nothing to say about the character.
So him almost getting killed by Titus was intentional?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cap America just made Namor with all his righteous rage bleed.When Thor and She Hulk, she of the Celestial beating power, plus Cap Marvel, were unable to.
On panel evidence shows therefore that Cap is > all of those.
Sure, sure, PIS, right?
EVERY time a speedster is tagged by someone slower, is PIS.
Originally posted by leonidas
you could insert scans but the vast amount of support would contradict what you'd show. for every dodge scan you showed, or speed-related perception scan you showed, a 100, a 1000 could contradict it. and the proofs you're ignoring in favor of more mma-based logic are the fights we've actually seen happen between hulk and superman ON PANEL.no offense intended but you might as well never debate anyone who fights superman ever again unless it's someone with verifiable light speed or greater combat speed because you're only going to give yourself an aneurysm and your stance is well known.
personally i find it to be a very un-entertaining, if valid, way to debate and it must make reading books frustrating seeing pis everywhere you look.
it's interesting though--i thought you were one of the guys who backed batman and the non-pis argument. meaning he's done so much of his batman sh!t so many times and for so long that when he does it, it should no longer be deemed pis. but that doesn't jive with this fascination you have with speed and labeling everything that contradicts anything a person with speed does as pis (though i think the forum rules state that that is expressly NOT the case--speedsters getting hit is NOT auto-pis at all. i could be wrong though but i don't think so....)
or maybe i'm wrong on your stance on batman. /shrug
But it's simple. We've all said it, Galan has said it, many mods have said it
Turn speed off. Equalise it. We do it with Bats- him and his opponent, in dojo, with robes on. Or in street clothes.
When we put WW in an MA gauntles, we equalise stats. So why not with speedsters?
Originally posted by leonidas
personally, i prefer to use books to rl logic--IN GENERAL. the same reason i think superman gets hit here is the same reason ss doesn't transmute everyone he fights. you hear an argument based on simplicity too often in the forum--speed is basic, speed is much less complicated than transmuting someone. i disagree. flash can throw a 100 000 punches, ss can transmute. if one is easier.... dodging is basic, the desire to not get hit is basic. so is thinking. ss only has to think about transmuting someone. but, when he doesn't no one is calling it pis every time. yet when a speedster gets hit, its pis. every time.personally, i don't see the distinction. imo, speedsters get hit in comics for many reasons--they underestimate their opponent, they aren't going max speed, they are FALLIBLE, they fall into habits of having to limit their powers around people. all of these are plausible reasons for someone to get hit. or plausible enough imo. superman gets hit because he rarely fears the consequences. his perception can be uber, but in the vast majority of his appearances it is nowhere near flash level. and imagine if flash REALLY saw things the way he is said to. billions--trillions, more?--years would pass for him before someone finished a sentence. the fact that he exchanges quips with enemies tells you all you need to know about how fast he's actually--in rl--seeing and sensing things. imagine talking to someone whose words actually take YEARS to be completed. and yet we don't look at THAT rl bit of logic. we only look at the hax powa speed gives any forum character.
if they get hit in comics, they should be able to get hit in a forum imo. but it's a slippery slope with speedsters and there IS no good way to reconcile flash. superman? he isn't flash.
bottom line for me--books should be the single best general gauge. if i can't use a superman vs hulk fight to get a sense of how a fight would go, again, what's the point of using comics at all? if someone is faster, they won't get hit. period. like i said, maybe a valid forum strategy, but certainly not an entertaining one and one that i think really divorces the characters from the medium that gave us everything about them.
maybe not a popular stance, but, meh. /shrug
Post of the year. I'm a nobody though, so take it for what it's worth.