weapon h vs superman

Leo, I understand where you're coming from but what you're talking about [i.e. story-reasons] and what this is [a forum fight] are two different circumstances. The ant-analogy doesn't work, because Weapon H is not an ant, and Superman knows it [basic knowledge]. If it were Luke Cage, I'd agree. He'd have zero, and I do mean zero reasons, to willingly take a hit from a Hulk-level being with claws, when the most basic ability in existence [speed] is his, on several orders of magnitude north.

None of these apply, on the forum, either:

there ARE legit reasons for superman NOT seeing the world this way, and even for getting hit: he'd be bored. he'd feel more alienated. he'd be further highlighting his differences from humans. habit. a genuine sense of near invulnerability. over confidence. a sincere belief he is simply more powerful than whomever he faces based on his huge number of victories. etc... none of those would indicate he is retarded, and all of them reflect areas of his CHARACTER that have been shown in comics--where his character is determined.

He's not interacting with anybody other than Weapon H, who he needs to fight and beat. He's not going to feel alienated in the fight with Weapon H. He's not going to feel bored in the fight with Weapon H. He is not taking punches so that others don't have to, unless there's weaker heroes around him, which there aren't here. He is not here to not use his super-speed, so that the story isn't over in a page [no-PIS]. He's not taking punches because he's "confident". What's next, threads start with Superman letting the opponents have free strikes? ....

Those are all story-related.

He is here, in this thread for one, very specific reason - to win. At full capacity.

As I've said - his level of speed [and Flashes] is broken, for the forum. There's no logical reasons why not only they'd allow themselves to get hit, but why anybody would. We'd have to treat them as legitimate retards. And instead of building a non-existent story, it should simply be equalized, and that's that.

Originally posted by leonidas
as i've said, there ARE legit reasons for superman NOT seeing the world this way, and even for getting hit: he'd be bored. he'd feel more alienated. he'd be further highlighting his differences from humans. habit. a genuine sense of near invulnerability. over confidence. a sincere belief he is simply more powerful than whomever he faces based on his huge number of victories. etc... none of those would indicate he is retarded, and all of them reflect areas of his CHARACTER that have been shown in comics--where his character is determined.

maybe i'm over thinking. lol but it feels like falling back on PIS all the time (which happens...a LOT here) really doesn't take into account the character of the character. it feels like the easy way to go and that route devolves quickly into power set battles. there are other forums for that--we usually make fun of them.

I agree with you, but I'd add that the 'legit reasons to explain Superman's behaviour' seem like an unnecessary requirement here, and a red herring. If Superman does act that way in 99% of his fights, then the presumption is that he'll act that way here, and it's up to debaters to defend/rebut that presumption (like Darksaint is doing in this thread: sure, Superman doesn't start off fighting a certain way, but maybe that changes within the fight).

It doesn't make sense that the forum has to 'rationalize' the way that we know Superman behaves, and if it can't be rationalized within the logic of the comics, then we replace Supe's fighting style (flawed as it may be) with a forum computer.

Because, as we all know, another explanation for his behaviour, equally strong as the ones you've proposed, is that he's in a f*cking comic book and doesn't act with the logic and fight-or-flight response of a human being. That fact/reality doesn't render all of his fights PIS. And PIS, imo, is a narrow term used too broadly too often. PIS is meant to try and stop silly instances of jobbing from tanking a character's overall forum weight.

Originally posted by Smurph
It doesn't make sense that the forum has to 'rationalize' the way that we know Superman behaves, and if it can't be rationalized within the logic of the comics, then we replace Supe's fighting style (flawed as it may be) with a forum computer.

The forum computer's processing ability must be massive, since it increases Superman's battle logic to that of a kindergartner.

I'll wait for the mods, to see how devoid of any kind of logic we should treat fights.

Galan, Pr?

I want to agree with Phil, but what about the Damage/Superman fight? Did he allow Damage to repeatedly tag him? There has to be a medium, or people will begin arguing from a purely power set perspective, ex. Hulk does planet crushing thunder claps at the start of battle, or Jane Thor unleashes the Mother Storm out the gate, or Black Bolt lets out a reality tearing shout as his first attack, or... etc.

Saying that Superman doesn't want to get hit by Weapon H's claws, so he'll use his speed to render attacks null, is 'replacing Superman's fighting style with a forum computer'?

The forum computer's processing ability must be massive, since it increases Superman's battle logic to that of a kindergartner.

I'll wait for the mods, to see how devoid of any kind of logic we should treat fights.

Originally posted by Smurph
It’s not “logical” to insist Supes fights differently than he does in the far majority of his appearances. It’s not “devoid of logic” to look to characters to see how they fight. [/B]

You're pivoting into vague phrases the likes of "fights differently", in order to mask the absurdity of your position that a man who can match the speed of light, and doesn't want to get hit, inexplicably gets hit because "that's how he fights in comic books", even though it makes zero logical sense, and it's against forum rules.

Takes this to somebody on his first rodeo. In the meantime, let's see what the mods say.

Originally posted by Stoic
I want to agree with Phil, but what about the Damage/Superman fight? Did he allow Damage to repeatedly tag him? There has to be a medium, or people will begin arguing from a purely power set perspective, ex. Hulk does planet crushing thunder claps at the start of battle, or Jane Thor unleashes the Mother Storm out the gate, or Black Bolt lets out a reality tearing shout as his first attack, or... etc.

You also have abilities that require more concentration or power like stopping time or stealing speed.

Originally posted by Philosophía
You're pivoting into vague phrases the likes of "fights differently", in order to mask the absurdity of your position that a man who can match the speed of light, and doesn't want to get hit, inexplicably gets hit because "that's how he fights in comic books", even though it makes zero logical sense, and it's against forum rules.

Takes this to somebody on his first rodeo. In the meantime, let's see what the mods say.

K, nice talking with you.

Same. wink1

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My question is....Do people think Superman starts the match as what, human level in speed?

Why does that only affect Superman? I mean, Weapon H interacts with his wife, his kids. He doesn't live life at superspeed (assuming he has any). Yet, he starts the match.....At full capacity?

Why?

Post bump.

Why the double standards? When he fights Hulk, even though the Hulk interacts in 99.99999% of the time at human level speeds when talking to Betty and Rick, nobody here talks about him 'switching gears' when in a fight.

Nobody talks about Wolverine or Spiderman switching gears, even though these guys are fast enough to see bullets in slow motion or whatever. If that was truly the case, theyedalso be bored out of their skulls.

Yet in Superman's case, he starts the match at Jimmy Olsen Lois Lane speeds. For reasons. If people bring comic showings up, then sure, but let's keep comparisons fair.

Originally posted by Stoic
I want to agree with Phil, but what about the Damage/Superman fight? Did he allow Damage to repeatedly tag him? There has to be a medium, or people will begin arguing from a purely power set perspective, ex. Hulk does planet crushing thunder claps at the start of battle, or Jane Thor unleashes the Mother Storm out the gate, or Black Bolt lets out a reality tearing shout as his first attack, or... etc.

Wasn't that Batman's plan to delay Damage as much as possible?

My belief is that if a slower person tags a faster person, it's ALWAYS PIS.

Let's reverse it. Batman (you all knew this was coming lol). He tags speedsters all the time.

Is it PIS? If yes, then we stop. Assuming there's no context like the speedster is sick or whatever.

If no? Then Batman is either A that fast or B the speedster is that slow. Or C, the Carver level argument which is that Batman is strong against speedsters, like Lanterns are weak against bricks and speedsters are weak against bricks, whilst street tiers are strong against bricks like some retarded Pokemon game.

Then what? What happens when random mugger #4748 tags Batman? Does that mean he's faster than Batman, and thus, speedster level?

As outlined in the forum rules:

Originally posted by DigitalMark
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Superman has well-documented superspeed at his disposal, therefore he would be able to use it in a forum setting unless otherwise specified in the OP(just like the Flash example cited in the above rule.)

Lots of things to consider. Lots.

Also, is it just me or does speed seem to be treated differently from the other stats like strength for example?
mhmm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Post bump.

Why the double standards? When he fights Hulk, even though the Hulk interacts in 99.99999% of the time at human level speeds when talking to Betty and Rick, nobody here talks about him 'switching gears' when in a fight.

Nobody talks about Wolverine or Spiderman switching gears, even though these guys are fast enough to see bullets in slow motion or whatever. If that was truly the case, theyedalso be bored out of their skulls.

Yet in Superman's case, he starts the match at Jimmy Olsen Lois Lane speeds. For reasons. If people bring comic showings up, then sure, but let's keep comparisons fair.

i don't get where you're claim of double standards comes in....? 😕 what is wh doing here that he HASN'T done in all his appearances....? i even said you're right, he likely wouldn't go for a critical blow, so, not sure what you're getting at. likewise with spidey and logan. not sure what rarely used ability they enter matches automatically using. and people DO argue that batman taking down people well beyond him is no longer PIS because it happens so often. to play devil's advocate, even if someone did argue for an ability like you're saying for spiderman, he'd be more dependent on it since he can be killed a whole lot easier than superman can be.

anyway, if we use full capacity, in the sense that hulk is a statue, why do we not simply argue highest end feats? seems silly not to, honestly. we say we leave out outlying feats because they go against the average, but clearly the idea of averages doesn't mean anything when it comes to speed, since in virtually every single appearance superman has ever made he does not use this level of speed. i guess i simply don't understand the distinction. the dos arc was a perfect example of superman fighting in character and amping his stats as needed.

some of you are saying "leo don't like it, leo want to change!" i ONLY want it to change because as is, the definition of full capacity leads to some terrible, repeated discussion. and isn't discussion what we want...? 😕

anyway:

how often DOES something have to happen for it to be considered IN CHARACTER? phil and others say that wh should be a statue. in 99.999999% of his appearances, superman definitively does NOT see the world in that way. so how can it possibly be considered IN CHARACTER for him to see the world that way in a forum match?

i still haven't got an answer to this. in reality, (and i am NOT trying to backseat mod, at all, nor am i trying to pi$$ anyone off) there really aren't many people left as part of this forum, so is it wrong to at least look at the way the rules have been defined up until now and perhaps consider if those are really still the best ways to look at things? shrug

Leo is making a lot of good points here.

Superman has infinite strength and hits Hulk with Flash level speed.

Stalemate. Hulk with his adamantium hard durability stands in one spot and tank Superman punches. Every second past, he gets more durable and punch the air so hard that time reverse to repeat the process. Adamantium hard Hulk for the win.

after galan posted that bit about full capacity, i checked out the rules--haven't done so in a while tbh. i was....surprised that there is nothing in them that defines what exactly "IN CHARACTER" means. there is mention of CIS, but nothing about what DEFINES a character. the more i think about it, the more that seems really strange to me. is that something you mods might consider including? maybe a good solid definition of just what "IN CHARACTER" means would force us to look at some tired old battles in new ways?

Originally posted by leonidas
after galan posted that bit about full capacity, i checked out the rules--haven't done so in a while tbh. i was....surprised that there is nothing in them that defines what exactly "IN CHARACTER" means. there is mention of CIS, but nothing about what DEFINES a character. the more i think about it, the more that seems really strange to me. is that something you mods might consider including? maybe a good solid definition of just what "IN CHARACTER" means would force us to look at some tired old battles in new ways?

At some point, common sense should apply, imo.

If we use Superman as an example,.in character generally means he won't kill, or make like Batman with the plot devices.

Absorbing Man won't be particularly intelligent with his powers.

Bruce Wayne won't use a revolver.

Spider-Man won't use his full strength against a street.

Ect ect.

Superman goes into this battle with working knowledge of his opponent. So at a minimum he'd know that WH is really strong/durable, and has really sharp claws that are nigh-indestructible. He'd also know that the fight itself is restricted to a really confined space that maximizes WH's lethality.

That said, while Superman may not blitz every opponent he comes across in a comic(because that wouldn't make for very interesting battles for the RW readers), we also know he's not stupid. Thus logic dictates that Superman would, at the very least, try to evade(or possibly even blitz) WH in a forum battle, if he felt that WH posed a legitimate threat to him. Hence the use of superspeed here.

Imo, it seems more illogical to assume that Superman wouldn't use superspeed against WH in a forum battle if he felt threatened by him. I mean, if you know your opponent has the ability to injure/kill you, and you have the perception, reaction, and overall speed to avoid their attacks, why wouldn't you use it to save yourself?

...Now that doesn't mean Superman will melt WH's head off in the first picosecond of the battle. That would definitely be out of character.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, if we use full capacity, in the sense that hulk is a statue, why do we not simply argue highest end feats? seems silly not to, honestly.

CIS, as far as I know, was for characters not to act as they're not. i.e. for Superman to decapitate people in flight or blitz them into paste, or for Batman to throw an exploding batarang at Daredevil and plaster him over the pavement. It's less about acting irrational in their tactics [i.e. forgetting powers and getting hit for no reason], which is covered in the no-PIS part.