full capacity vs in-character (had to happen!)

Originally posted by Bentley
Well, we have had mentions like morality on, morality off or bloodlusted. With the current rules we aren't really discussing just powersets, for me we do consider the likeness of an event happening under the control of an specific character before throwing it into the arena (I don't recall many Superman fans actually claiming he'd use a counter-frequence to destroy Hulk). Powersets would also allow characters to do things they have never managed or even being implied to do before. Surfer has never used a singularity inside someone's body but he has implied he could do it, Airwalker derives his Powers from the same source, so is he supposed to spam singularities too if we use powersets?

As long as everything is agreed upon I don't mind either kind of debating.

It takes creativity to think of certain tactics as they are not common sense things to do.

But saying that a speedster is not allowed to use their speed in a forum fight is ludicrous.

Originally posted by leonidas
the last point is already defined in the rules:

of course with flash that could be very different--onus on the debater to prove.

intelligence? not sure i understand. imo, intelligence plays a limited role in a forum fight--at least it may be dependent on the environment. one might say bats can read opponents quicker--prove it--and use...whatever tactic he wants. he'd certainly face wh with a different mindset than superman might. i don't see why intelligence would be portrayed any differently.... /shrug only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent.

always comes down to speed, eh? how often in a comic do you think flash or superman ACTUALLY, and quantitatively fight at light speed? superman? almost never. he is restricted by environment. you might say--a forum has no environment. so, how often does he fight at lightspeed in space?

does this mean they still can't out-speed 99% of opponents? clearly not. but the while attosecond stuff? it's such a minute part of his achievements, that i don't see why THAT should be the go-to. that should be the last resort. maybe we should go back to giving wins out of 10. as battles progress, tactics would certainly change. again, let the books be the guides.

cis, like pis, remains unchanged--within the parameters of the comics.

So Batman can use whatever tactic he wants...... Because....What,he's more intelligent? There are only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent?

These two powers , superspeed and intelligence, are linked. Hence my question.

CIS is there for characters that are genuinely that dumb. That doesn't mean that someone with superspeed would willingly get hit. Even animals and kids would flinch and attempt to move out of the way of you hitting them. Fruit flies have incredible reaction speeds:
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-creature-with-the-quickest-reactions-might-surprise-you-da3752e279

And will move out of the way of you hitting them.

You literally are saying Superman and Flash etc are dumber than fruit flies, lol.

In short, what some call CIS, I say it's actually PIS for superspeed characters.

To slow it down to humans, people are effectively arguing in my Batman vs Boulderine situation, he keeps spamming Batarangs. Even though they don't work.

Flash keeps spamming.... Ineffective punches. Even though they don't work.

Aha! You scream. That's EXACTLY how comics show him fighting!

So a guy who can solve 36 crossword puzzles a minute, solves crimes for fun AND for work.....Doesn't realize he's being ineffective?

I mean, it doesn't even take that much to outspeed someone, a a fruit fly shows. And Flash is far faster than a fruit fly.....I don't think many of you realise just how easy it is to outspeed things. I'm not talking about 'outspeeding Death levels of speed.

Two humans can do it:

And the gap between Flash and other characters is far far far wider than two humans.

Not saying Tyson never got tagged , of course he did. But he's no Flash, and he's still more than capable of avoiding hits.

Originally posted by h1a8
There is a big difference of thinking about extravagant tactics vs basic powers that are always on.

It takes creativity to think of certain tactics as they are not common sense things to do.

But saying that a speedster is not allowed to use their speed in a forum fight is ludicrous.

But credit where it's due 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So Batman can use whatever tactic he wants...... Because....What,he's more intelligent? There are only so many ways in a forum fight to outthink an opponent?

These two powers , superspeed and intelligence, are linked. Hence my question.

CIS is there for characters that are genuinely that dumb. That doesn't mean that someone with superspeed would willingly get hit. Even animals and kids would flinch and attempt to move out of the way of you hitting them. Fruit flies have incredible reaction speeds:
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-creature-with-the-quickest-reactions-might-surprise-you-da3752e279

And will move out of the way of you hitting them.

You literally are saying Superman and Flash etc are dumber than fruit flies, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short, what some call CIS, I say it's actually PIS for superspeed characters.

To slow it down to humans, people are effectively arguing in my Batman vs Boulderine situation, he keeps spamming Batarangs. Even though they don't work.

Flash keeps spamming.... Ineffective punches. Even though they don't work.

Aha! You scream. That's EXACTLY how comics show him fighting!

So a guy who can solve 36 crossword puzzles a minute, solves crimes for fun AND for work.....Doesn't realize he's being ineffective?

I mean, it doesn't even take that much to outspeed someone, a a fruit fly shows. And Flash is far faster than a fruit fly.....I don't think many of you realise just how easy it is to outspeed things. I'm not talking about 'outspeeding Death levels of speed.

Two humans can do it:

And the gap between Flash and other characters is far far far wider than two humans.

Not saying Tyson never got tagged , of course he did. But he's no Flash, and he's still more than capable of avoiding hits.

👆

Wow y'all got meta af since I last really engaged. Good post Leo! (RIP KMC GL Corps.)

Anyway as someone mentioned earlier, back in the day people would often set these kinds of conditions for their fight (bloodlusted, morality off, etc.)

This discussion, from my view, seems mostly to do with speedsters, as if you give that particular power a 2nd thought, you realize how central it is to any fight or any storyline for that matter. If you can do everything in the blink of an eye, who can stop you from doing anything? What's the reason Flash doesn't just exist in a state of perpetual light speed? What's the consequence for that?... no really I'm asking

Originally posted by leonidas
soooo, i seem to have raised something of a sh!tstorm. 😂

good. when something has been around for a long time, it sometimes bares re-examining that thing. forum rules, and the way we look at battles, is just one of them.
i'll preface this whole thread and idea with this--my goal wasn't to overturn any applecarts, my goal was simply to try generating new and different discussions. lazy and sloppy debates have become sort of common place. that...probably won't change, but if we can generate something new, look at old battles in new ways, doesn't seem like a bad thing.

ANYWAY... my proposal is simple--[b]i'd like to add a rule into the official rules that clarifies just what it means for a character to be IN CHARACTER. TO ME that would mean we use typical comic portrayal as the determining factor. as a a forum that professes to be character-based in argument formation (as opposed to power set based) it seems only logical we use comic portrayals as the determining factor.

this would mean that REGARDLESS OF PERCEIVED PIS, we look at what a character would do in a battle based on what they do in a comic.

"but leo, we're ignoring PIS!!"

no. superman still doesn't kill. he just....doesn't see opponents as statues at the start of a fight. why? because he's never entered a battle viewing opponents as statues--or rather, he ALMOST never has. flash wouldn't fight every battle at greater than light speed--or even light speed. why? because he doesn't do so in comics. if you think he does, the onus is on YOU to prove it. ss isn't transmuting anyone, and likely starts most battles blasting someone--unless YOU can prove different.

i like the idea for a couple reasons--it brings characters like flash BACK into matches. he isn't ending matches in an attosecond because, well, he doesn't.

this ALSO doesn't preclude FULL CAPACITY--it simply mitigates its usage. full capacity may depend on who is fighting whom. it will also heavily mitigate high end feats AND low end ones making them essentially illegal in many cases, because they are not typical performances.

and of course, any thread can dictate its OWN rules. so if you don't like this, you can simply put FULL CAP in your thread and play by your own rules.

so, looking for thoughts. i'd love to see a rule added whether it takes exactly the form i'm talking about or some variation.

have at it. and keep it civil. 👆 [/B]

I already did. I thought you ****s read the rules.

Full capacity and personality were never meant to remotely seem mutually exclusive. I thought I was clear about that.

If I have to write something new, then so be it I guess.

My take on what you wrote, Pr, was that many of the times Superman takes punches was plot driven. Which we ignore.

He doesn't want to be bored. Feel alienated. Is feeling confident he can take the punch. Whatever.

Thing is,in a forum match, we assume he's here to fight. He's not tearing heads off and lobotomizing people, but neither is he going to take a punch. Because he's not here to talk someone down, or any of the 'in character' things he does.

Match starts, he's here to fight, he's here to win.

I get what you're saying. I just disagree, but only in certain circumstances.

Leo says -correctly- that plot armour should be ignored.

Surely it works both ways? Streets don't get turned into a pink mist when hit by meta/herald/trans tiers, and slower characters don't get humiliated by faster characters.

I want EVERYONE to watch this video:

YouTube video

Watch the whole thing. The entire fight.

What, 30mins is too long? Too slow for you guys?

That's how superspeed characters see things. Except that was only at 1/2 speed. We're not saying Flash had to move at Death racing speeds.

A lot of you have been what I call poisoned by anime. This isn't the Chuunin exams, where Rock Lee takes his weights off, or Guy opens his 6th gate. Neither is it DBZ, where you need to power up to the next level.

You guys are seeing things like *Character A hits B. B wipes blood off his lip* 'Good hit,my man....now it's my turn!!!!' and applying it here.

But that's all plot driven.

Fast characters getting hit is part of the media really. We aren't Reading comics so they tell us Damage is a strong character, they need to show it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You guys are seeing things like *Character A hits B. B wipes blood off his lip* 'Good hit,my man....now it's my turn!!!!' and applying it here.

Anyone doing that should stop.

That's essentially what the Leo, Carver and Bluewaterrider Superman argument is.

Ding,match starts.

Superman.....puffs his chest out, because in a comic called the Death of Superman, that's how he acted. He's feeling confident. Bored and wants a challenge. Wants to experience the human condition of being beaten to death. Whatever.

Gets tagged.

Ramps up his speed.

Gets tagged again....The number of times is dependent on how much you want to lowball Superman.

Ramps up again until he either loses the match or out speeds the opposition....

Edit: I mean, we have mages and GLs with autoshields that fire up in the event their opponent attacks....But if ITS YOUR OWN SPEED, even as one sees a fist headed for one's face, one does.....Nothing?

Originally posted by -Pr-
If I have to write something new, then so be it I guess.

That's why I didn't mind leo making this thread. I was legitimately curious what everyone's thought process was here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Probably does need to be clarified a little better in the rules(one way or the other) just to avoid confusion in the future.

That's why I didn't mind leo making this thread. I was legitimately curious what everyone's thought process was here.

Doesn't matter what my thought process is, by the time I've formulated a rebuttal the thread has jumped ten pages on .

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short, what some call CIS, I say it's actually PIS for superspeed characters.

To slow it down to humans, people are effectively arguing in my Batman vs Boulderine situation, he keeps spamming Batarangs. Even though they don't work.

Flash keeps spamming.... Ineffective punches. Even though they don't work.

Aha! You scream. That's EXACTLY how comics show him fighting!

So a guy who can solve 36 crossword puzzles a minute, solves crimes for fun AND for work.....Doesn't realize he's being ineffective?

I mean, it doesn't even take that much to outspeed someone, a a fruit fly shows. And Flash is far faster than a fruit fly.....I don't think many of you realise just how easy it is to outspeed things. I'm not talking about 'outspeeding Death levels of speed.

Two humans can do it:

And the gap between Flash and other characters is far far far wider than two humans.

Not saying Tyson never got tagged , of course he did. But he's no Flash, and he's still more than capable of avoiding hits.

you're stuck in a circular and faulty premise where you are consistently using rl logic, comparing comic characters to rl characters, and referring to comic characters as dumb BECAUSE REAL LIVING people wouldn't do things the same way.

they are NOT rl people. 😐 we constantly admonish people for comparing rl to comics, but you're doing that exact thing. divorce them--entirely--from rl. use what we see in comics AS the foundation for their actions.

you also seem to be focusing mostly on speed. but-again--no one is saying speed can't or won't be used. who said flash is going to stand there and get hit? will he dodge the first blow from daredevil at lightspeed? hell no. and it's idiotic for anyone who knows the character to suggest it. but stuff like that happens--all the time. that is h1's bread and butter--it's why superman beats classic odin 100/100 regardless of how idiotic that is. it's why people cringe and drop out of threads when someone suggests taking characters like flash and zoom and extrapolating based on their POWER SETS. suddenly they are "broken". lol no they aren't they are broken because we are forcing rl logic on them and their powers. which is crazy because that is NEVER EVER how they were intended to be viewed. if we STAY in comics, ignore rl and its implications, we ALL have the same foundation and characters are TRULY made characters and used the way they were intended.

in a comic book setting, characters aren't dumb even though they do what they do. they do what they do because it is an illogical medium, inherently. the idea of "haxx" ONLY comes up BECAUSE we try and force rl logic onto these powers. we can, and imo should, mitigate these things.

there are already SEVERAL forums that look at battles the way h1 wants to look at them. why be the same, when we profess to be character-based? and if we ARE character-based, then we should be FULLY character-based. and if we aren't, then we should just declare ourselves no different from cbr or comicvine or reddit or....

many of the problems stem from the fact that people want us to be BOTH. but we can't. again:

IN CHARACTER and FULL CAPACITY are IRRECONCILABLY opposed. how can FULL CAPACITY be IN CHARACTER, when IN CHARACTER, superman almost NEVER operates at FULL CAPACITY?

anyone?

But you're forcing a battle board mentality onto comics. Writers don't care. They don't care about the implications of making Wally outrun Death, for example. But the fact remains, he's done it.

As you say, plot armour exists. I am saying it exists for the opponents of speedsters. Street tiers don't explode into pink mist when hit by trans/HHs, slower characters are able to tag faster opponents.

It's all PIS.

If you want them to not be broken, it's simple. Have it as part of your OP. ‘Speed equalised’. If that stip is not present, then one character is faster, and thus, won't get touched.

Edit: you say to use comic examples as the foundation. OK.

A scion of one of the science houses, of one of the most advanced civilisations in the DCU, who practices and applies his reasoning abilities on a daily basis.....Will decide to, in a fight where he's trying to win, to use his speed.

Edit edit: Leo, your argument is fast devolving into Carver's ' Lanterns are weak against bricks' argument.

In the majority of their appearances, a brick can break the shields and constructs of a Lantern. Are you of that opinion too?

Dont know why people are saying Superman speed is always active. Here he is obviously activating it to keep up with Flash...

Originally posted by carver9
Dont know why people are saying Superman speed is always active. Here he is obviously activating it to keep up with Flash...

To keep up with Flash, sure.

Not against others. Flash is just a different tier. We all know this.

Are you saying he enters a thread at.....What, Lois Lane level speed? Batman? Aquaman?

I like how you're using old showings now 😂

edit.

as i've said--repeatedly--SPEED CAN STILL BE USED! you sound like i'm trying to outlaw speed. i'm saying use it as it is used IN COMICS instead of IRL. i'm not forcing a battle board mentality onto comics... 😕 i'm doing the EXACT opposite--trying to use comics as a foundation for a battle board.

pis exists in comics. it would still exist in the forum. speed still exists in comics. speed would still exist in the forum. every would still be in play--we could just drop the silly notion of using powers as they would be used by living people in the real world. it only leads to problems.

and btw--i'm not saying one debating method is inherently better than the other. at all. i'd fine fine debating power sets. i'd be fine debating in a more character-based manner. we have a mix of both here, all the time. throw in the constant high and lowballing that takes place in virtually ever thread and it's no wonder threads are constantly derailed or closed or simply become circular in their content.

again, i think if we profess to be character-based, we should be. otherwise we're no different from anyone else. and that'd be fine with me too. just seems we have enough of those types of sites. be nice to see some different arguments from the same tired old ones we see all the time.