@Bada, I haven't read your pm yet but I'll get to it shortly.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Well I seem to be ruffling feathers that will get me in trouble again so this will be my last post on the matter, but I gotta say that I'm still confused as all get out. Nothing seems to be clarified other than characters with superspeed will be unhittable against threatening characters without superspeed because they'll use more common sense than anyone else. Seriously, the rules are SO generalized that's it can be quit difficult for opposing parties to see eye to eye on the basics because as I mentioned before, speed is the only thing that's being given attention in regards to clarification. I'm not saying that anyone should go to the trouble of explaining every potential scenario, but IMO giving or two more examples OTHER than speed would go a long way towards avoiding a lot of the bickering over the basics. As it stands, the rules are exceptionally subjective and open to interpretation EXCEPT in regards to super speed, so of course there's going to be a lot of confusion and bickering over everything else.Anyway that's my two cents, you guys make of it what you will.
Gonna be honest... I'm not sure where the lines of communication are breaking down here. Speed was only used as the example because it's the one thing that gets brought up the most of any aspect of superpowers on this forum. Any character with reasonable experience using a superpower will be believed to be capable of using it to a reasonable extent if it helps them win.
So now, I have a question:
Why would you create a fight in which one character has a distinct advantage over another, and not use the "equalize speed" condition that others would?
-You wouldn't put an Olympic athlete in a weight-lifting competition with The Thing or Colossus.
-You wouldn't put a person with two judo classes in a fight with Lady Shiva.
-You wouldn't expect me and my IT background to make me as capable of inventing shit as Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne.
Is there something about speed that makes it special? I don't want to seem aggressive or dismissive, but if I am, and that's where the "ruffling" comment comes from, then I am sorry. I'm also sorry if I'm genuinely missing something too.
Originally posted by carver9
I think versatility plus intelligence should be discussed. So, has a rule been made that we debate speed as the first line of defense and can not use on panel evidence against this? Too much to read through.
No, that's not what it said at all.
I mean, we have threads where WW is put up against other MAs...and the first thing the OP says is 'strength' or 'stats' equalised. Because we acknowledge strength is lopsided.
We don't really say it for other powers because it becomes nonsensical. 'Surfer vs Wolverine; energy blasts equalised'. Sounds stupid.
Speed is focussed on, because it is the one power that really levels the playing field. One guy could be the greatest MAer, with matter manip powers, laser eyebeams, hydrokinesis, zombie summoning, whatever....but the other guy will always move faster than him. In that scenario, speed gives the 2nd guy a great chance at winning. 1st character of course wants to win, and he might summon zombie armies then transmute them all into Galactuses.
It sucks, but that's how it is. If not a fan, then equalise, just like we equalise other stats.
Edit: we even had all of this pretty much written, just not explicit in the rules.
Check the section on prep time:
powers that are automatic or 'always on' can be up
Add that to the Full Capacity rule (which has been quoted extensively so I wouldn't).
Add THAT to the PIS rule:
It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.
CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb
And FINALLY, to the Battlefield rule:
It will be assumed combatants are primed to go at the gun.
So, we have multiple rulings on top of each other, saying that PIS is defined as lesser powered guys being a match/challenge for higher powered (in this case, speed). With a literal example of the Flash. That CIS is only because they are that dumb. That they arrive on the field 'ready to fight'. That their powers are always on.
I guess it just needs more explicitness.
Edit edit: and then add CIP on top:
What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots.
'Oh noes! This giant raging monster with six one metre long swords out of each hand is coming for me! Better tank dem punches!!!'
i think what goob is saying is pretty simple--if speed guys use 'logic' to avoid hits (at whatever level of speed they are 'logically' assigned based on....'logic'😉 then why wouldn't versatile guys (ss, firestorm, etc...) 'logically' use their abilities to, say, start every fight intangible? just look at the current bz. why doesn't thor use his huge array of powers at the start of a fight? why is it different (less logical?) for these guys to use their powers, than it is for someone to use speed? really, there is no difference.
the thing with logic is that we're using it, then.....applying an arbitrary ceiling on where we/the characters STOP using it. why cap their speed? it's not logical. why not use MORE powers? that is also illogical. or maybe one poster sees one level as logical, another sees another. maybe one poster thinks it's logical for ss to start every battle intangible, another doesn't.
this is the reason i was suggesting a uniform baseline to determine these things--the comics. without some common ground the issue will continue to be blurry. but, we've survived this long, sooooo.... /shrug
ds, still not sure what you're looking for in regards to intelligence. how do you see it being...neutered now? what can intelligence add to a one on one battle?
Originally posted by -Pr-Is there something about speed that makes it special? I don't want to seem aggressive or dismissive, but if I am, and that's where the "ruffling" comment comes from, then I am sorry. I'm also sorry if I'm genuinely missing something too.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I just don't understand why when character A moves at lightspeed a handful of times and is a far departure from other speed showings is gospel when compared to him lifting/destroying planets through strength(far departure from majority) is automatically high end.
This is a generalization by the way and is more complicated, but one should get the picture.
This goes for any character.
Just an observation.
Originally posted by leonidas
i think what goob is saying is pretty simple--if speed guys use 'logic' to avoid hits (at whatever level of speed they are 'logically' assigned based on....'logic'😉 then why wouldn't versatile guys (ss, firestorm, etc...) 'logically' use their abilities to, say, start every fight intangible? just look at the current bz. why doesn't thor use his huge array of powers at the start of a fight? why is it different (less logical?) for these guys to use their powers, than it is for someone to use speed? really, there is no difference.the thing with logic is that we're using it, then.....applying an arbitrary ceiling on where we/the characters STOP using it. why cap their speed? it's not logical. why not use MORE powers? that is also illogical. or maybe one poster sees one level as logical, another sees another. maybe one poster thinks it's logical for ss to start every battle intangible, another doesn't.
this is the reason i was suggesting a uniform baseline to determine these things--the comics. without some common ground the issue will continue to be blurry. but, we've survived this long, sooooo.... /shrug
ds, still not sure what you're looking for in regards to intelligence. how do you see it being...neutered now? what can intelligence add to a one on one battle?
Sent a PM.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Should intelligence be capped? If I gave Supes a week prep and he can do everything in his abilities to win, would he do it?
The only thing that, generally, should cap anything is how far a character can or will go to win, imo.
Lex Luthor would take more extreme measures than, say, Peter Parker.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
For some reason, speed out of all stats/abilities seems to be treated differently.Just an observation.
Would you mind clarifying what you mean, as I think I get you, but I'm not sure.
Originally posted by leonidasThing is, not even comic books seem to have a uniform standard in how they treat the mindsets of most characters, which still leaves room for ambiguity... Especially when we start talking about characters who have hundreds/thousands of appearances under their belt.
i think what goob is saying is pretty simple--if speed guys use 'logic' to avoid hits (at whatever level of speed they are 'logically' assigned based on....'logic'😉 then why wouldn't versatile guys (ss, firestorm, etc...) 'logically' use their abilities to, say, start every fight intangible? just look at the current bz. why doesn't thor use his huge array of powers at the start of a fight? why is it different (less logical?) for these guys to use their powers, than it is for someone to use speed? really, there is no difference.the thing with logic is that we're using it, then.....applying an arbitrary ceiling on where we/the characters STOP using it. why cap their speed? it's not logical. why not use MORE powers? that is also illogical. or maybe one poster sees one level as logical, another sees another. maybe one poster thinks it's logical for ss to start every battle intangible, another doesn't.
this is the reason i was suggesting a uniform baseline to determine these things--the comics. without some common ground the issue will continue to be blurry. but, we've survived this long, sooooo.... /shrug
ds, still not sure what you're looking for in regards to intelligence. how do you see it being...neutered now? what can intelligence add to a one on one battle?
As an example: you might think Surfer will start the battle acting a certain way based on the comics you've read. I might think he'd start the battle off an entirely different way based on the comics I've read... Then we get into this same discussion yet again.
So as Pr said: if you pit someone against Surfer who is unable to cope with his versatility in a forum battle, that's on you. Same with pitting someone against Flash who can't cope with his speed. Or Juggernaut's strength, or Xavier's TP, etc. etc.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Would you mind clarifying what you mean, as I think I get you, but I'm not sure.
I think in general, speed seems to be played up more than any other stat or ability a superhero may have.
Let's take character A for example. He's fast. He has a range of showings ranging from speed of sound, all the way to wtf ftl omgzz! A large majority of his showings seem to be around low mach to high mach. There are even statements of him unable to go past those speeds let alone light speed. But then, u get those occasions in which phukk logic and he's like god of speed level ftlllllllll. "Yep, his standard is ftl." Anything below is a low showing or pis/cis.
Now let's take char B. He's strong. He has a range of going skyscraper and mountain punching/lifting all the way to planet destroying/moving... And even sometimes beyond. A large majority seem to be around battleship moving and city/mountain lifting. There are statements of him unable to move or destroy anything past a mountain. Then we get the occasional wtf did he just destroy planets simply from shockwaves wtfzorz? The general feeling from most seem to relegate this char back to skyscraper tossing instead of planet sneezing. It's almost like an automatic response. "high end etc..."
This goes for any stat whether it be durability, damage soak, versatility, etc...
just my opinion and a general observation. Then again i could be wrong on what I think is the general observation of others.
Originally posted by Galan007
Thing is, not even comic books seem to have a uniform standard in how they treat the mindsets of most characters, which still leaves room for ambiguity... Especially when we start talking about characters who have hundreds/thousands of appearances under their belt.As an example: you might think Surfer will start the battle acting a certain way based on the comics you've read. I might think he'd start the battle off an entirely different way based on the comics I've read... Then we get into this same discussion yet again.
So as Pr said: if you pit someone against Surfer who is unable to cope with his versatility in a forum battle, that's on you. Same with pitting someone against Flash who can't cope with his speed. Or Juggernaut's strength, or Xavier's TP, etc. etc.
And even if you disagree on the start of the battle, there've been enough fights featuring Surfer that there's a guideline there for what he can and can't do, never even mind what he would or wouldn't during the course of said fight.
There's no need for anyone to reach and make shit up, because all the tools and examples are there for us to draw our own conclusions.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Sure.I think in general, speed seems to be played up more than any other stat or ability a superhero may have.
Let's take character A for example. He's fast. He has a range of showings ranging from speed of sound, all the way to wtf ftl omgzz! A large majority of his showings seem to be around low mach to high mach. There are even statements of him unable to go past those speeds let alone light speed. But then, u get those occasions in which phukk logic and he's like god of speed level ftlllllllll. "Yep, his standard is ftl." Anything below is a low showing or pis/cis.
Now let's take char B. He's strong. He has a range of going skyscraper and mountain punching/lifting all the way to planet destroying/moving... And even sometimes beyond. A large majority seem to be around battleship moving and city/mountain lifting. There are statements of him unable to move or destroy anything past a mountain. Then we get the occasional wtf did he just destroy planets simply from shockwaves wtfzorz? The general feeling from most seem to relegate this char back to skyscraper tossing instead of planet sneezing. It's almost like an automatic response. "high end etc..."
This goes for any stat whether it be durability, damage soak, versatility, etc...
just my opinion and a general observation. Then again i could be wrong on what I think is the general observation of others.
Okay, I think I get you.
At the very least, speed is a superpower like any other. If your average is being just faster than some bullets from an AK-47, then yes, something FTL would be considered a high-end feat. In that sense at least, speed should generally be scaled the same way.
There is a problem that crops up when you have someone like the Flash, though. Speed is, generally, probably the hardest of all the superpowers to write, because it involves a level of scientific knowledge, or even mathematical knowledge, that most writers seem to either lack, or just aren't willing to learn. So there's a ton of inconsistency, and unfortunately it's left to us to fill in the gaps.
But yes, in general, you have to scale speed the same way you scale anything else.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Sure.I think in general, speed seems to be played up more than any other stat or ability a superhero may have.
Let's take character A for example. He's fast. He has a range of showings ranging from speed of sound, all the way to wtf ftl omgzz! A large majority of his showings seem to be around low mach to high mach. There are even statements of him unable to go past those speeds let alone light speed. But then, u get those occasions in which phukk logic and he's like god of speed level ftlllllllll. "Yep, his standard is ftl." Anything below is a low showing or pis/cis.
Now let's take char B. He's strong. He has a range of going skyscraper and mountain punching/lifting all the way to planet destroying/moving... And even sometimes beyond. A large majority seem to be around battleship moving and city/mountain lifting. There are statements of him unable to move or destroy anything past a mountain. Then we get the occasional wtf did he just destroy planets simply from shockwaves wtfzorz? The general feeling from most seem to relegate this char back to skyscraper tossing instead of planet sneezing. It's almost like an automatic response. "high end etc..."
This goes for any stat whether it be durability, damage soak, versatility, etc...
just my opinion and a general observation. Then again i could be wrong on what I think is the general observation of others.
What is hard to understand about characters overclocking when the OP states:
Bloodlusted, The World Is In Peril, The Character's Baby is being dangled over a vat of acid
Etc.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Okay, so, I wanted to put this up last night, but it turned in to a monster, so **** it, I waited until I was happy with it to post it. Basically, you should all know better, and I shouldn't have to explain something that should be common sense after years on this board. So now I'm going to write it out in a way that is going to seem as basic and possibly patronising as possible, but to be honest I want to make sure there are no misunderstandings. In Character means that to the best of your ability, you write the character reacting how they would react in a given situation without the demands of the plot or themselves getting in their own way.[b]TLDR:
Characters, generally, don't self-sabotage to the point that it will cost them the match, nor will they accelerate to 100 in the over-the-top use of their powers, unless it's something you can prove is a habit of theirs.So, what IS In Character?
It's something that should easily be boiled down to "How a character will react when put in to a specific circumstance" namely a VS battle. How do we know this, or rather, should we know this? Simple: You can name any one of a dozen, if not two-dozen people on this board that could walk in to the offices of Marvel or DC and, like many other comic fans, be seen as having encyclopedic knowledge of a character or a team. The assumption is that with that knowledge comes a level of understanding of said character. If you're reasonably intelligent, and I know a lot of the people on this board are (even if they pretend to be dense as **** sometimes), understanding a character in broad strokes is not that hard.
For example, I've read less than... I'd say easily less than a hundred Spider-Man comics, but if you asked me to describe his personality, I could draw on said comics even without having seen movies or cartoons or even that weird TV show from the 80s, and tell you that Spider-Man is, deep down, just a person trying to do the right thing. He's a genius but also a nerd. He loves his aunt, he loves (or did love) his wife Mary Jane, and he would feel deeply the loss of anyone he couldn't save. That's simple stuff.
Now, if we talk about powers... I know the base-level stuff. I know he can stick to walls. I know he can shoot webs from web shooters he made himself. I know he has a Spider-Sense that warns him of danger. I know he's strong, durable and fast. Strong enough that he has to pull his punches so that a bank-robber's heart doesn't explode. Fast enough that he's not likely to get hit by gunfire. I have read that he's the most agile person in Marvel, though I don't know if that's true or just was at one point. But he does a LOT of flippy shit in his comics. That said, there are probably a bunch of applications of his powers that I haven't the foggiest idea about.
So, with those two in mind, as limited as it might be, I come to the third part: How Spider-Man fights In Character. How do I get there? Simple. As much as I want to be able to say "You go by how the character behaves, not how you would in their place", you still have to fill in the gaps once you take things like PIS out. But, and this is the important part, you are SUPPLEMENTING them. You are NOT. REPLACING. Shit. What you would do with Spider-Man or any other character's powers is great and all, but it's what leads to powerset v powerset, and is for tourneys, NOT for the general board. This part of the point is incredibly important. You are still operating within the paramaters of what a character WOULD do, as opposed to what they CAN do.
Even from reading the comics I've read, which I've already admitted is not that many in comparison to some of the people on this board, I can still say several things with reasonable certainty when it comes to Spider-Man: His superior agility means most enemies will have a hard time hitting him unless they have some hard counter to it like superior speed. He likes to use his webs, which means that character that specialise in melee are going to have a hard time against him, and Spider-Man KNOWS THIS. Because HE KNOWS THIS, he is smart enough to use this to his advantage. This means that because HE knows he doesn't have to close to melee range, that he won't stupidly decide halfway through the fight to try outpunching someone that could out-punch him. Or to waste time on someone that can be wrapped up with one shot of his webs. He can still get close up and win fights, sure, but that's an option, not a necessity.
Obviously, if someone knows Spider-Man better than I do, I'm going to end up getting corrected in threads when it comes to facts about the character, his power levels or his villains if I say something wrong, but the basic idea is still there. I've seen Spider-Man use his webs enough, to be competent in their use, and to avoid attacks while concentrating on his own, to know that at the very least, it's common behaviour. There's a reason "Spider-Man webs up Character X" is a viable tactic on the forum.
"But Pr," you might ask "What if a character has a power that they use more sparingly?". Well, to that I would say:
-Is it a part of their powerset and has been used occasionally enough (ie, like, a dozen times, maybe) that they won't forget they can use it?
-Can they access this power/ability right now?
-Will not using it cost them the fight?And that right there? That's arguably the most important question.
If the answer to all three of those is yes, then they're most likely going to use the power/ability. Either their opponent can stand up to it, or they can't.
Is that simple enough? I mean, what else do you really need to know?
For the last part of this point, I'm going to use a character I know a bit better: Wally West. Flash is notorious on the forum, and you could say some of it is earned. Most of it, however, is not the fault of the character. If you, as a poster, put The Flash against someone that does not have the means to hurt him, then that is on YOU. It's not The Flash's fault that he's not going to slow down or trip over a branch just to give a substantially slower character a chance against him. And no, no talking shit about the Rogues, btw; they're all designed from the ground up to fight The Flash. They're not ammo for your favourite street leveller to have a shot against him.
If you put Deathstroke up against Flash and try to argue using Identity Crisis as evidence, you deserve to get laughed out of the thread. Like a whole lot of Marvel and DC, you get a writer that writes interesting character studies, or great fights. You rarely get both, and that fight, as entertaining as it was, should have been over before Deathstroke was even able to exhale.
-Now, continuing to use the Flash, and to briefly talk about the Superman Vs Weapon H thread:
A character like the Flash is not going to get hit by someone substantially slower than him unless they have some counter to his powers. Simple as that. Wally West isn't Superman (and I'm going to get in to this in a later post). He can't afford to get hit more than once or twice before it starts to actually impact his ability to win the fight. And this, at the end of all of this ranting on the subject, is where I try to lay it out as best as I can:
The Flash/Relevant Character X will use, at a bare minimum, the least amount of speed/Relevant Power, that he is capable of using under average/normal circumstances, required to not lose the fight, or get so badly injured that it will most-likely cost him the fight. Every superhero or supervillain has a minimum amount of effort and competence that they will utilise going in to a fight. For villains that's usually a higher starting point because they like to not hold back, sure, but the heroes aren't going to be stupid either. They are not going to self-sabotage, and they will not let pride, ego or forgetting they have a way to win the fight to get in the way.
-If you put Flash up against someone that can't beat him without PIS, that's not his fault. That's yours.
-If you put Shadowcat up against someone that can't get around her intangibility without PIS, that's not her fault. That's yours.
-If you put someone up against Xavier that can't get past his telepathy to push him down the stairs, again, that's not his fault. That's yours.This whole idea of putting lesser character up against ones they can't (and notice I said can't, not won't) beat just because you like them more? I doubt it's going to stop, but seriously, anyone who does it? You're not being clever. We all see what you're doing. You should stop. You'll be better off.
If you read this far, congrats. I really hope this, or at least part of this, has cleared things up for anyone who wasn't sure. [/B]
Originally posted by Galan007
Thing is, not even comic books seem to have a uniform standard in how they treat the mindsets of most characters, which still leaves room for ambiguity... Especially when we start talking about characters who have hundreds/thousands of appearances under their belt.As an example: you might think Surfer will start the battle acting a certain way based on the comics you've read. I might think he'd start the battle off an entirely different way based on the comics I've read... Then we get into this same discussion yet again.
So as Pr said: if you pit someone against Surfer who is unable to cope with his versatility in a forum battle, that's on you. Same with pitting someone against Flash who can't cope with his speed. Or Juggernaut's strength, or Xavier's TP, etc. etc.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I know. I know. But I'm not about to start making rules about what a specific character would or would not do. Even my Superman example wasn't a ruling, but instead how I view why his speed is the way it is.I mean, people can be wrong, and they will be, but that's their problem.
Originally posted by Galan007
👆I would also add that if the thread starter doesn't want certain abilities/tactics to be used in their thread, all they have to do is specify such in the OP. Problem solved.
We cannot possibly account for every shred of ridiculous BS that certain people might try to argue in threads. All we can do is make blanket rules/generalizations and hope that everyone is adult enough to understand their purpose.
Galan and Pr have made their feelings very clear. The fact they took the time to read through this thread tells they care about people's feelings more than me. 👆
Mods are not here to referee debates. If you want a mod to make a judgment call, PM a mod and it will be considered.
As I said earlier, the rules have been in place over a decade. This board will not be turned into a powerset vs powerset debate forum. If you want that, have a tourny or BZ. You all know the fanboys, trolls and idiots, debate them at your own peril.
We're not going to splice the minutiae of every debated character and the writer's specific take on said character. The rules take care of most scenarios. The rest can be sorted out in the OP, or in the thread.