full capacity vs in-character (had to happen!)

Started by DarkSaint858 pages
Originally posted by carver9
This is why you look at the majority, not the minority. If Batman is consistently tanking Wonder Woman level punches, then an argument can not be made against him. A couple or showing doesnt tane president over a character entire history. This is what makes KMC different than Comicvine. When you start to debate primarily off of powerset,, it ruins the entire experience of debating.

Batman consistently fights Wonder Woman. On every fight they've had in n52, he's done well.

Every street does consistently well against Heralds, meta's and trans level beings. Marvel and DC.

Do we say ah, heralds are weak against streets? That's what comics consistently show. No street worth their salt gets turned into a pink mist by heralds.

None.

Plot armour? Sure. We ignore them. Agree with that.

But slow characters also get plot armour against fast characters. And we.....Say that's comics.

@Dark

So getting beat up is doing well. You probably need to switch that to "he survives".

Which streets does well against Heralds? Key word is consistently. We are not talking about avoiding, getting beat up, etc... you said they do well.

Or the fast character just doesnt fight anywhere close to the way you think they combat. It's just that simple.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Whether they are or not, I want the rules to be clear. And I want this board not to be full of "powerset vs powerset" shite.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

All we are saying is that Superman/Flash....don't want to get punched in the face, and will do their utmost to...not be. Something every fighter/normie/child/dog/fruit fly does.

We are NOT saying 'Full Capacity' means the bell rings and Superman sings people out of existence, or Flash...actually, you know what?

Flash/Superman has dodged hits more times than Flash has IMP'd. No one would begrudge an IMP, right? Or is that also off the table now?

People are making a massive leap from 'Superman and Flash will use one of their basic (in Flash's case, ONLY) powers', to 'OMG this means Surfer will open black holes whilst going intangible whilst his board hits you in the back of the head at multiples of c, whilst at the same time scanning you for your specific weakness and emitting that exact radiation!!!!'

Flash and Barry were pretty much destroying the universe racing around the planet but Zoom who is technically faster than Flash someone gets tagged by Batman

Yup... dark is really misrepresting how speedsters fight

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT.

All we are saying is that Superman/Flash....don't want to get punched in the face, and will do their utmost to...not be. Something every fighter/normie/child/dog/fruit fly does.

We are NOT saying 'Full Capacity' means the bell rings and Superman sings people out of existence, or Flash...actually, you know what?

Flash/Superman has dodged hits more times than Flash has IMP'd. No one would begrudge an IMP, right? Or is that also off the table now?

People are making a massive leap from 'Superman and Flash will use one of their basic (in Flash's case, ONLY) powers', to 'OMG this means Surfer will open black holes whilst going intangible whilst his board hits you in the back of the head at multiples of c, whilst at the same time scanning you for your specific weakness and emitting that exact radiation!!!!'

I'm not going to get in to the rest of your post no matter how much I might disagree with parts of it, but that first line? People are doing that, and have been doing that shit for a while in that thread and other threads. And I was speaking pretty damn generally to boot.

Originally posted by carver9
@Dark

So getting beat up is doing well. You probably need to switch that to "he survives".

Which streets does well against Heralds? Key word is consistently. We are not talking about avoiding, getting beat up, etc... you said they do well.

Or the fast character just doesnt fight anywhere close to the way you think they combat. It's just that simple.

I say they don't get turned into pink mist. That's an amazing showing, considering who they are facing. The gap between a human and a herald who hits harder than Doomsday, AND who overloads a guy who wasn't overloaded by the Speed Force/Hal Jordan, is astronomical.

These are guys who lift mountains with their pinkie. Just breathing on them too hard would break a street, lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short:

When a character who's less durable tanks attacks better than a character who's more durable, that's PIS:

Wonder Woman against Batman:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/99065/4146536-batman+(2011-)+035-008.jpg

Same attack, Wonder Woman against Shaggy Man:
https://imgur.com/a/xGm3S

OMG, DS.....that's clearly PIS.

When a slower character is shown to be faster/as fast as a faster character...

Well, shucks, that's just how comics work, mate. Suspension of belief.


That's not the same attack btw. 😛
Just sayin...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I mean, sure, we have SOME suspension. There is no way Batman does half/90% of the things he does. There is no way a random mutation in your DNA gives you the ability to make it rain/snow/hail. I get it.

But that is a far cry from 'Character A, despite being faster, in character gets tagged by Character B who is nowhere near in speed.'


Yep. That's why in Supes vs Weap H cage match, i had Supes taking it. Also I don't think Clay has had run ins with actual speedsters.

I'd really hope the mods give a detailed verdict on this.

Nobody here is debating powerset vs poweset. Anybody who's read the discussion know it.

We're talking about if we're allowed to use basic, rudimentary logic of "Superman don't want to get hit. He will use super speed not to".

If we can't use basic, 'rudimentary' logic like this:

and you keep forcing rl logic--even rudimentary logic. not sure why.

I'd really like to know. And, since we can't use real life logic at all, we should do away with :
- the PIS rule, too, since that's something we impose on a fictional medium, using real life logic.
- the "full potential" part, since it doesn't make sense anymore, as it's argued that a guy with super speed won't defend himself from slow [compared to him] attacks because he's "alienated" or "bored" or whatevs. 'Full potential' is hilarious at this point. It's literally the worst potential.

I will keep away from this, as I've said all there needs to be said, and await that.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I'd really hope the mods give a detailed verdict on this.

Nobody here is debating powerset vs poweset. Anybody who's read the discussion know it.

We're talking about if we're allowed to use basic, rudimentary logic of "Superman don't want to get hit. He will use super speed not to".

If we can't use basic, 'rudimentary' logic like this:

I'd really like to know. And, since we can't use real life logic at all, we should do away with :
- the PIS rule, too, since that's something we impose on a fictional medium, using real life logic.
- the "full potential" part, since it doesn't make sense anymore, as it's argued that a guy with super speed won't defend himself from slow [compared to him] attacks because he's "alienated" or "bored" or whatevs. 'Full potential' is hilarious at this point. It's literally the worst potential.

I will keep away from this, as I've said all there needs to be said, and await that.

Either way, I win.

Either Flash gets his one power back, or Batman gets to oneshot Gotham clones, fight WW without his armour, one shot Grundy, tank blades that cut through anything, tank bloodlusted Amazonians, deflect bloodlusted guys who hurt Superman, tag Zoom, defeat Sinestro Grundy AND Joker whilst in an old prototype Luthortech suit (and whilst crippled).....

And this is just in the last couple of months or so, off the top of my head.

That's how comics work.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not going to get in to the rest of your post no matter how much I might disagree with parts of it, but that first line? People are doing that, and have been doing that shit for a while in that thread and other threads. And I was speaking pretty damn generally to boot.

Well we've already had a mod rule on it.

Originally posted by Galan007
We could certainly better-define/clarify what 'in character' actually means in the forum rules(I'd be happy to do so), but imo, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason comes into play -- especially for a character as intelligent and battle-savvy as Superman.

Speed is among the most rudimentary abilities in a character's arsenal, and Superman has a well-documented history of superspeed usage. Therefore, once Superman figured out whether or not WH's claws pose a legitimate threat to him(which could be deduced via a quick molecular scan, even IF he goes into this battle without any knowledge of WH's abilities), then logic dictates that Supes would at least use *enough* speed to dodge WH's attacks in order to avoid getting killed. I mean, even if we don't want to allow a character to use the full breadth of their superspeed offensively in a forum battle, then surely they should be able to use just enough of that speed defensively to protect themselves, no? I'm sure everyone can agree that most characters are intended to go into a forum battle with the basic will to live, right?

IOW, if character A can dodge bullets, and character B points a gun at them and pulls the trigger, would we not assume that character A will dodge the bullets in a forum battle if they have done so in the past? Again, that much just comes down to instinctual self-preservation, imo. /shrug

Galan even quoted the Full Capacity rule.

Originally posted by Galan007
As outlined in the forum rules:

Superman has well-documented superspeed at his disposal, therefore he would be able to use it in a forum setting unless otherwise specified in the OP(just like the Flash example cited in the above rule.)

So yeah. I don't think we needed a whole thread lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well we've already had a mod rule on it.

I helped write the thing, and yet...

....and yet. tbf though pr, there isn't an actual definition of IN CHARACTER. the rules come close though with this bit, and the elaborated on explanation:

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

this is really close to what i've been trying to get at. at their hearts, they are really the same. the only thing i would like clarified is that IN CHARACTER (character overall) is based ON COMICS. not by our rl logic.

yet again.....logic can still play a part in this. as can super speed, and....everything else. but wtf would superman see everyone as a statue when it has literally never happened in a book? that doesn't mean he can't up that ability, or START at it if he is fighting an evil guardian of the universe.

but his course of action should be dictated by what he does in comics. i....truly don't see the issue with it.

or go to power set debates.

still haven't had anyone answer this:

IN CHARACTER and FULL CAPACITY are IRRECONCILABLY opposed. how can FULL CAPACITY be IN CHARACTER, when IN CHARACTER, superman almost NEVER operates at FULL CAPACITY?

anyone?

Originally posted by -Pr-
TBH, while I don't mind the idea of writing something with more clarity, I'm kinda wondering what I should write, as at least every post in this thread has been a little bit wrong in the interpretation of what I honestly thought was a pretty clear rule.

That said, if the majority wants things a certain way, I wouldn't be opposed to working something out, even if I disagree with it personally.

I'm open to working it out in PMs if you want. Or if you want to open it up to people, a thread.

We can discuss it here or via PM. Either way.

I think the whole 'in character' clause does need to be blatantly defined in the rules just to eliminate confusion like this in the future. As we've seen here, people are interpreting the rules much differently it seems...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well we've already had a mod rule on it.
Tbf, that was just my personal take on how speed should be applied in versus threads as a bare-bones minimum(because it makes perfect sense to me.) Can't say it was a formal 'ruling', though.

Here's my current thoughts on the matter:

I don't believe Superman super rapes every character within nanoseconds of looking into their eyes. That's just not in character for him.

However, to counter his speed, you actually need feats from characters to contend with it. You need to present a reasonable case based on your comic characters to explain why it's unlikely. You can't just handwave it away because Superman doesn't use it all the time, you need a counter. And you know, he still has his speed even in character, so what difference does it make it he rapes him in 0.2 Carvoseconds or after Superman starts losing, if he can still whip it out at anytime? You need to be able to counter that throughout, if you can't then you can't. That is a concession if you can make zero case for your actual character.

Yes comics are important, but that goes for both sides. Superman might not rape characters off the hop, but if your character has done literally nothing to even deal with a speedy character, let alone a lightspeeder, then you're ****ed. He still has speed, it doesn't matter when he does it.

This differs however when weapons and carvers are introduced. Your intent may be to have them brawl in a small box, but it can't be a brawl, and it will never be a brawl because Superman is not retarded. He can be killed instantly by one attack and he can SUPERSEE that ****ing weapon. Whereas with a fist, Superman might be inclined to test the waters, and likely would judging by comics. For example I don't think that in a normal forum fight that Superman wouldn't get hit by Hulk if it were entirely up to me, but I also don't believe that he wouldn't also use his speed to land a ****load of shots and piledrive the shit out of him. Think a good Justice League Unlimited fight from the cartoon, that's my preferred method of visualizing fights.
Weapon H however has full sized swords, and Superman knows and can see this. Superman would not allow him to touch him with his full speed enabled. Weapon H has no feats to counter that idea, ergo, mega fukt.

-------

And a little off topic, but I think once you reach lightspeed or somewhere around there all these femtosecond/nanosecond/carvosecond feats just seem to be writers not understanding the consequences of these words. The only people who should really outspeed and blitz "I was going 100048 times the speed of light" boys is Flash. But that's largely my own feeling based on me perceiving it as just oneupsmanship and writers doing zero research. I think it has a place in the forum, just not in every thread as a casual "of course" answer. Say for example attosecond being used to counter a nanosecond fella. Do we really think it reasonable attosecond lad could make nanosecond boy appear as a complete statue and that's how every fight should be intended?
I'd say it boils down to a raw power off in that case but that's just my opinion. Superman still wins that more often than not, but at least it gives him an opponent if he fought say Gladiator or someone.

Something something something, Pope Carver IX will usher in a new age.

I agree for the most part.

I'll use Superman as the lead example here because he's who got this ball rolling in the first place, but the same logic can apply to any speedsters really... My personal opinion is that if you don't want Superman having the potential to hyper-blitz his opponent in a thread, just specify such in the OP, and/or equalize their speeds initially. Problem solved.

If speed is allowed, however, I think Superman is intelligent/rational enough to at least use his speed defensively, in order to avoid getting killed by his opponent IF he believes them to be a legitimate threat. For example, put Supes against Lex with a Kryptonite knife, and I think we can all agree that Superman isn't just going to stand there and allow Lex to stab him with said knife. He's going to dodge the slashes with an *adequate* amount of speed for that particular situation/threat, and then neutralize the threat with that same *adequate* amount of speed. Why? Because he knows the knife is a potential danger to him and he doesn't want to die.

Does that mean he's going to instantly blitz every opponent within the first attosecond of the battle and melt their faces off with HV? No. That wouldn't be a reasonable standard to put him at on average. But as I said, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason factors into how these characters would fight in a forum battle. Again, we can probably all agree that the characters are assumed to go into these battles with the basic will to live, right?

Just MO.

Cant wait to use forum Surfer.

Stop being an idiot, Carver. No one is trying to peddle the bullshit you're spewing right now.

Y'all ignored my boy Quick Freeze. Shame on everyone.

👇

Also, hey everyone. Sorry Leo, I don't have anything to add here, but I appreciated the chat about it. Best that the discussion is for those who are still active anyway.

Digi and Paola make an appearance the same day? Lol what the hell is going on? At this rate Tron will pop in tomorrow. 😛