Originally posted by BrolyBlackshe used to break the 4th wall all the time back in the old sensational shehulk series and talk with her writers and artists. she was alot like deadpool back then. dont know why goofy stuff she did matters here though?
What did she Hulk do again?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85👆
Tore the page she was on and burnt it.Similar to Lobo.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXXIt's typically a means of lowballing/downplaying.
she was alot like deadpool back then. dont know why goofy stuff she did matters here though?👆
"She-Hulk, Doom, Deadpool, Lobo, Ambush Bug, etc. have all broken the fourth wall in a hysterical fashion, therefore the Yellow Aliens aren't really that impressive."
But again, if you think the outlier hijinks those characters have preformed is even remotely comparable to what was transpiring in the Animal Man issues, then you need to sorely revisit them(most of us realize there are varying degrees of metafiction, and it doesn't get any greater than Morrison's brand.) Moreover, simple fourth wall-breakage is NOT what puts Trano & Zaarn on such a high level(as I've already said.) The fact that they are the direct agents/hands of DC's real world writer, and as such no one but the real world writer has power/authority over them, is what makes them so damn uber... That literally IS their fundamental role.
They are as 'meta' as it gets. Their ability to break the fourth wall is just a bonus.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
she used to break the 4th wall all the time back in the old sensational shehulk series and talk with her writers and artists. she was alot like deadpool back then. dont know why goofy stuff she did matters here though?👆
Same, goofy writing to me doesn’t mean she can one off beyonder or something. I never understood why they do the 4th wall crap anyways.
Originally posted by BrolyBlackWhat did she Hulk do again?
... not silly 'agents' of the RW writers, the actual writer and artist himself. 👆
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John Byrne never wrote another She-Hulk book again. 🙂
Regarding her line, he was dead.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Any 4th wall breaker that can slap, intimidate, dominate RW staff avatarscan match or beat these two.
Byrne's She-Hulk stomps though.
Originally posted by Galan007
For all intents and purposes, that character was Morrison. He made his intent crystal clear here:Morrison's brand of metafiction is undoubtedly much different than most other comic book writers'.
Originally posted by Astner
And if we look at the DC title Flex Mentallo, also written by Grant Morrison a year after he wrote Animal Man #12, the story is dealing with three levels of reality.
The comic world of Flex Mentallo, the "real" world of his author Wally Sage (another Grant Morrison insert, like "the writer"😉, and the "hyper-real" world of the Legion of Legions.
The panel above features Lord Limbo of the Legion of Legions, and Wally Sage as a child and an adult.
So my question to you is, is it reasonable to assume that these meta-metafictional characters are even more powerful than the yellow aliens, the writer or any other "normal" fictional character or "normal" metafictional character?
Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree. Just like the Aliens aren't really RW anything.But if we do decide to go there ... She-Hulk rules!
Byrne's She-Hulk is the most powerful 4th wall involved cat in history.
I agree. Hers should be ignored as should these. Beyonder was basically The most powerful real character in existence. I don’t even think think the TOAA could erase him.
Beginner was beyond anything the entire Marvel Multiverse has to offer.
Originally posted by AstnerYou're missing the point, I think? The character from Suicide Squad was no longer intended to be the literal Supreme Being avatar he was in Animal Man. Ostrander was basically shitting on Morrison's concept.
No, it was just another fictional character. That's how he could be killed off in Suicide Squad #58.
The stips of this thread, however, refer exclusively to the Animal Man issues. And in those issues, the Morrison avatar was indeed intended to be the analogue of his real world self. Hence this dialogue:
You can't use Ostrander's rendition of Morrison from an entirely different issue to try and diminish what Morrison's avatar represented under Morrison himself. That's like me using showings from F4 #319 to try and diminish pre-retcon Beyonder.
Doesn't work that way in versus threads.
Originally posted by AstnerTrano & Zaarn were intended to be the direct agents/hands of DC's real world writers, and as such, no one but DC's real world writers had power over them. So imo, the only way a character could 'out-meta' them is if they were on par with the Morrison avatar from Animal Man. IOW, someone equivalent to the actual writers themselves.
So my question to you is, is it reasonable to assume that these meta-metafictional characters are even more powerful than the yellow aliens, the writer or any other "normal" fictional character or "normal" metafictional character?
That being said, while I do enjoy discussions on metafiction(especially if you'd like to dissect some of Morrison's other work), I'm unsure what it has to do with the topic at hand..? Beyonder certainly isn't a metafictional being. /shrug
Originally posted by Astner
No, it was just another fictional character. That's how he could be killed off in Suicide Squad #58.It doesn't matter that he was written by a different writer at the time because because most comic book characters are not the product of the works of a single writer.
And if we look at the DC title Flex Mentallo, also written by Grant Morrison a year after he wrote Animal Man #12, the story is dealing with three levels of reality.
The comic world of Flex Mentallo, the "real" world of his author Wally Sage (another Grant Morrison insert, like "the writer"😉, and the "hyper-real" world of the Legion of Legions.
The panel above features Lord Limbo of the Legion of Legions, and Wally Sage as a child and an adult.
So my question to you is, is it reasonable to assume that these meta-metafictional characters are even more powerful than the yellow aliens, the writer or any other "normal" fictional character or "normal" metafictional character?
Arguably, there's no such entity as 'Pre retcon Beyonder'.
That's just a forum construction to make sense of his wildly different power levels.
And so it is here. We're only using the YAs from a specific run, where they're pretty specifically of a certain power level.
I'm not sure if some posters are half-assed in their trolling, or they legit didn't understand the story.
Grant Morrison in Animal Man was literally the Grant Morrison from real life representing himself in the story, from our real world [because real life people can't physically exist in comic books, so they write themselves in it]. Thus Galan's scan above, explicitly mentioning the fact that Animal Man can never get into our world.
Grant also mentions that he's not the only writer, but is just in charge of the Animal Man issues, and somebody else is writing him in the other comic books:
And at the end he thanks his editors for their help in writing the comic book:
Animal Man broke the fourth wall because Grant wrote him to break the fourth wall. He even wrote Animal Man to beat him up [the same way people write She-Hulk -- or Lobo -- or whomever to break the 4th wall and beat the writers or whomever]:
Originally posted by Galan007
You're missing the point, I think? The character from Suicide Squad was no longer intended to be the literal Supreme Being avatar he was in Animal Man. Ostrander was basically shitting on Morrison's concept.
The fact that other writers can then take what he represented himself with and mess up with it doesn't change the fact that, while he was the writer of the comic book, what was drawn on the page was the actual Grant Morrison - in real life - with all the control over the story from our world that it entails.
Originally posted by Galan007
That being said, while I do enjoy discussions on metafiction(especially if you'd like to dissect some of Morrison's other work), I'm unsure what it has to do with the topic at hand..?
Continuing that line of reasoning in Grant Morrison's Flex Mentallo, that would mean that the hyper-real heroes from the Legion of Legions are beyond writers. Which I'd think you'd agree on is an absurd notion.
Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
The fact that other writers can then take what he represented himself with and mess up with it doesn't change the fact that, while he was the writer of the comic book, what was drawn on the page was the actual Grant Morrison - in real life - with all the control over the story from our world that it entails.
Either way, Morrison did introduce characters that were to writers, as writers are to comic book characters in Flex Mentallo. How does this fit into the narrative you're purposing.
Originally posted by AstnerAs I've stated repeatedly: Trano & Zaarn are above most other conventional characters because they were the direct agents/hands of DC's real world writers, and as such, no one but DC's real world writers had power over them:
It has to do with the relation between fiction and metafiction you're purposing, that metafictional characters should be treated as if they were on a separate level of power from "normal" comic characters.
It's not like I'm trying to say that they only win 'cuz metafiction'. They win because per that story, the only being(s) above them are DC's real world staff.
Originally posted by AstnerThis is an entirely different discussion pertaining to Morrison's take on metafiction, though. Varying 'degrees' of metafiction, etc.
Continuing that line of reasoning in Grant Morrison's Flex Mentallo, that would mean that the hyper-real heroes from the Legion of Legions are beyond writers. Which I'd think you'd agree on is an absurd notion.
It doesn't at all pertain to Trano & Zaarn vs. pre-retcon Beyonder.
Originally posted by AstnerHow could you possibly understand this the complete opposite? That's honestly quite baffling.
I'm not following you here, are you arguing that Grant Morrison physically interacted with Animal Man?
The point is that Grant Morrison couldn't physically interact with Animal Man, since he was in the real world, in which Animal Man can't exist - being, shockingly, a comic book character. This was made abundantly clear, and Galan even gave you some help with a cropped up panel:
So Grant represented himself on the page, and interacted with Animal Man - and by interaction it means that he was in charge of everything that was going in the comic book, including what Animal was saying or doing, because he was writing the script -- in our world.
Either way, Morrison did introduce characters that were to writers, as writers are to comic book characters in Flex Mentallo. How does this fit into the narrative you're purposing.
Mxy literally threatened up actual photos of real-world people:
..but we know he did that because the real-world writer wrote the script to make him do that. The same way the drawn real-world Grant Morrison made Animal Man beat him [i.e. see previous post].
All fiction on the page is there because of the writer - including the meta-fiction itself.
Originally posted by Galan007
This is an entirely different discussion pertaining to Morrison's take on metafiction, though. Varying 'degrees' of metafiction, etc.It doesn't at all pertain to Trano & Zaarn vs. pre-retcon Beyonder.
This is important, because the essence of your argument for why you think the yellow aliens would defeat classic Beyonder is because they're "more real," and not because they've better feats or because they're implied to be more powerful.
Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
How could you possibly understand this the complete opposite? That's honestly quite baffling.
Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
what was drawn on the page was the actual Grant Morrison - in real life -
Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
The point is that Grant Morrison couldn't physically interact with Animal Man, since he was in the real world, in which Animal Man can't exist - being, shockingly, a comic book character. This was made abundantly clear, and Galan even gave you some help with a cropped up panel:So Grant represented himself on the page, and interacted with Animal Man - and by interaction it means that he was in charge of everything that was going in the comic book, including what Animal was saying or doing, because he was writing the script -- in our world.
Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
Mxy literally threatened up actual photos of real-world people:..but we know he did that because the real-world writer wrote the script to make him do that. The same way the drawn real-world Grant Morrison made Animal Man beat him [i.e. see previous post].
All fiction on the page is there because of the writer - including the meta-fiction itself.
In this case, the staff decided to take some funny pictures, Photoshop them, and crop in a hand-drawn comic character. It's still a fictional story. And just like when She-Hulk killed her writer, there are no sensible implications of power that you can draw from that.
