pre-ret Beyonder vs. Yellow aliens

Started by Galan0074 pages
Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Astner
Of course it does, because the Wally (the writer of Flex Mentallo) is the exact same self-insert of Morrison as in Animal Man's "the writer," and within Flex Mentallo there are beings beyond him.

This is important, because the essence of your argument for why you think the yellow aliens would defeat classic Beyonder is because they're "more real," and not because they've better feats or because they're implied to be more powerful.

Are Animal Man and Flex Mentallo the same story?

If not, then I fail to see how this is relevent to the discussion at hand, and/or how it changes anything I have said..? Within the pages of Animal Man, the Morrison avatar was as supreme as it can possibly get, as he literally was the avatar of Grant Morrison himself -- the being who actually wrote the issues and everything that transpired in them.

...And the Aliens were Morrison's direct agents, and thus could only be affected by him.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Philosophía
How could you possibly understand this the complete opposite? That's honestly quite baffling.

Because you said was.
Originally posted by Philosophía
what was drawn on the page was the actual Grant Morrison - in real life -

This was a fictional character Morrison spoke through, just as every writer speaks through every character they're writing. The notion that the character was any more real than any other comic character because he broke the forth wall is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Philosophía
The point is that Grant Morrison couldn't physically interact with Animal Man, since he was in the real world, in which Animal Man can't exist - being, shockingly, a comic book character. This was made abundantly clear, and Galan even gave you some help with a cropped up panel:

So Grant represented himself on the page, and interacted with Animal Man - and by interaction it means that he was in charge of everything that was going in the comic book, including what Animal was saying or doing, because he was writing the script -- in our world.


Then I agree with you.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Mxy literally threatened up actual photos of real-world people:

..but we know he did that because the real-world writer wrote the script to make him do that. The same way the drawn real-world Grant Morrison made Animal Man beat him [i.e. see previous post].

All fiction on the page is there because of the writer - including the meta-fiction itself.


Metafiction isn't something separate from fiction, it's not non-fiction. It's just a term for describing elements in a story that breaks the fourth-wall.

In this case, the staff decided to take some funny pictures, Photoshop them, and crop in a hand-drawn comic character. It's still a fictional story. And just like when She-Hulk killed her writer, there are no sensible implications of power that you can draw from that.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Galan007
Are Animal Man and Flex Mentallo the same story?

If not, then I fail to see how this is relevent to the discussion at hand, and/or how it changes anything I have said..?


Because I shouldn't have to make a new thread about Morrison's Lord Limbo vs the Writer to prove this point.

You have to be consistent in how metafiction should be meshed with the cosmic. You can't say that Beyonder would lose against the Yellow Aliens, because they're agents for the Writer, but then argue Bryne's She-Hulk killing her own writer doesn't count in a future Beyonder vs. She-Hulk thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
...And the Aliens were Morrison's direct agents, and thus could only be affected by him.

The aliens were certainly affected by the events of the story.

Philosophía "The devil made me do it"

Originally posted by Astner
Because you said was.

what was drawn on the page was the actual Grant Morrison - in real life -
Are you trolling me? This was my full quote:
Grant Morrison in Animal Man was literally the Grant Morrison from real life representing himself in the story, from our real world [because real life people can't physically exist in comic books, so they write themselves in it]. Thus Galan's scan above, explicitly mentioning the fact that Animal Man can never get into our world.

Are you cropping out quotes to troll me, or just to hide the absurd position you've taken? Because I don't have time for this shit.

This was a fictional character Morrison spoke through, just as every writer speaks through every character they're writing. The notion that the character was any more real than any other comic character because he broke the forth wall is ridiculous.
The Grant Morrison that appeared in the Animal Man comic was the writer himself saying:

"Hello, I exist in the real world. I control everything from that you can see on this page. This is my last issue. Thank you to my real world editors for bearing with me"

That's vastly different than " just as every writer speaks through every character they're writing" -- since the characters they're writing aren't, by definition, themselves talking from the real world to their fictional comic book about the total control they have over the story.

How could you possibly say something that stupid?

Originally posted by Astner
In this case, the staff decided to take some funny pictures, Photoshop them, and crop in a hand-drawn comic character. It's still a fictional story. And just like when She-Hulk killed her writer, there are no sensible implications of power that you can draw from that.
Yes, because a fictional character can't beat up people in the real world. On the other hand, real world writers can [and in this case, Grant Morrison has] shown that he can write himself talking and interacting [i.e. total control over what anybody says and does] to his comic book.

How could this possibly be that hard to understand?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Astner
Because I shouldn't have to make a new thread about Morrison's Lord Limbo vs the Writer to prove this point.

You have to be consistent in how metafiction should be meshed with the cosmic. You can't say that Beyonder would lose against the Yellow Aliens, because they're agents for the Writer, but then argue Bryne's She-Hulk killing her own writer doesn't count in a future Beyonder vs. She-Hulk thread.

Geesh, you're moving goalposts all over the place.

You cannot use a completely separate comic book series(Flex Mentallo), published by a divergent comic book company(Vertigo), to try and diminish the clear intent of the issues in question(Animal Man.) What's next? Posting metafictional showings from 'Annihilator' and 'Nameless'(both of which were also written by Morrison in different companies) to try and legitimize your stance here..?

We're discussing the issues of ANIMAL MAN exclusively... And IN said issues, the intent/role of Morrison's avatar couldn't have possibly been clearer. Metafiction that Morrison has written in other series' doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Astner
The aliens were certainly affected by the events of the story.

Okay? I'm not saying that the story itself cannot have any impact on the Aliens whatsoever. As mentioned ad nauseam, I am just saying that the real world writer is the only being with true power/authority over them. ie. only Morrison himself can truly muck with the Aliens -- anyone below writer-level cannot.

We're not talking about cartoony outliers or w/e(like the aforementioned She-Hulk examples.) Where the Aliens are concerned, they are literally the direct agents/hands of the real world writer. That IS their fundamental status/role as characters -- that IS their defined powerset.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Philosophía
Are you trolling me? This was my full quote:

Are you cropping out quotes to troll me, or just to hide the absurd position you've taken? Because I don't have time for this shit.


That was what you said in the beginning of your post, which you later contradicted at the end of your post, which was what I quoted. Because that's what I found confusing.

Originally posted by Philosophía
The Grant Morrison that appeared in the Animal Man comic was the writer himself saying:

"Hello, I exist in the real world. I control everything from that you can see on this page. This is my last issue. Thank you to my real world editors for bearing with me"

That's vastly different than " just as every writer speaks through every character they're writing" -- since the characters they're writing aren't, by definition, themselves talking from the real world to their fictional comic book about the total control they have over the story.

How could you possibly say something that stupid?


I disagree. He could've just as well thanked his editors through Animal Man's dialogue. You're equalizing breaking the fourth wall to being real, which isn't the case.

The Writer is a fictional character, designed by Grant Morrison to tell a story breaking the fourth-wall.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Yes, because a fictional character can't beat up people in the real world. On the other hand, real world writers can [and in this case, Grant Morrison has] shown that he can write himself talking and interacting [i.e. total control over what anybody says and does] to his comic book.

How could this possibly be that hard to understand?


Because you're confusing the Writer (the character) for the literal writer of the story. The Writer is also a fictional character, taking on the roll of a godlike figure.

Suppose that Animal Man instead met a bearded man calling himself God, who similarly would explain that he controls all of Animal Man's thoughts, feelings and history.

This "God" would be equal to the Writer (character) in terms of power, in my opinion. Because the metafictional element of it doesn't matter. Just like when She-Hulk killed her own writer.

Philosophía "The devil made me do it"

Originally posted by Astner
That was what you said in the beginning of your post, which you later contradicted at the end of your post, which was what I quoted. Because that's what I found confusing.
Contradiction? You thought I said that real life Grant Morrison.....in flesh and blood....did...what....teleport himself in the comic book....even though I already said real world people can't...exist...physically in comic books....in the beginning of the same post?

Astner, I refuse to think you were confused about this. So please, stop the trolling.

If you really feel lonely and want attention, just PM me. But stop with this shit.

Originally posted by Astner
Suppose that Animal Man instead met a bearded man calling himself God, who similarly would explain that he controls all of Animal Man's thoughts, feelings and history.

This "God" would be equal to the Writer (character) in terms of power, in my opinion. Because the metafictional element of it doesn't matter. Just like when She-Hulk killed her own writer.

I don't need to suppose anything - stop with the retarded red herrings - first Flex Mentallo, and now "BUT WHAT IF HE DIDN"T SAY HE WAS GRANT MORRISON? WHAT IF HE DIDN'T SAY HE WAS FROM OUR WORLD? WHAT THEN?". Then he would be just another fictional character, 'God', who is not the writer from the real [our] world. What was actually put in the comic book was real life Grant Morrison illustrating himself within a comic book all the while explicitly saying that he exists in the real world and this is the last issue he is writing, saying goodbye to all the real world editors and collaborators.

Troll and deflect.
Troll and deflect.

It's getting boring, my chummy little buddy.

Mr Master Junior Member

Bottom-line is, any and all penciled ink in comic books is subject to the writer/artist.

The Aliens have no power outside the comics they've appeared in.

Just like She-Hulk was GOD of her own run (50 issues) only within that specific arc.

The Aliens' power in Marvel would be gauged upon what they actually did on panel in DC,
vs what they represented in the 'meta-textual' whateva concept.

Therefore, they would get wtfstomped by even post-retcon Beyonder.

Just like all-mighty Mxy in Marvel, was stalemated by the Impossible Man.
In Marvel comics, that's his equal. In fact, the IM was literally a "rip-off" of Mxy. (stated on panel)

DeadpoolXXX Fraggin' Bastiches

ya just to clarify i did mean the aliens from morrisons run on animal man specifically.

but i didnt know how op the aliens were going in. beyonders op too but just in a different way. this is like comparing apples to oranges. last time i use meta characters in a thread thats for sure lol.

Mr Master Junior Member

==========================

She-Hulk effortlessly murdered John Byrne's avatar ...

... who was the equivalent to Grant Morrison's in Animal Man.

btw, Unless I'm missing something in the scans presented,
the Aliens are just as cartoony as She-Hulk. (ink is ink)

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Mr Master
Bottom-line is, any and all penciled ink in comic books is subject to the writer/artist.

The Aliens have no power outside the comics they've appeared in.

Just She-Hulk was GOD of her own run only within that specific arc.

The Aliens' power in Marvel would be gauged upon what they actually did on panel in DC,
vs what they represented in the 'meta-textual' whateva concept.

Therefore, they would get wtfstomped by even post-retcon Beyonder.

No.

These battles take place in a neutral universe, with all of the characters' abilities operating to their max capacity. IOW, the Aliens' fundamental role as agents of the real world staff still applies. That IS their powerset.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Just like all-mighty Mxy in Marvel, was stalemated by the Impossible Man.
In Marvel comics, that's his equal. In fact, the IM was literally a "rip-off" of Mxy. (stated on panel)
What was the point of even bringing this up?

Originally posted by Mr Master
She-Hulk effortlessly murdered John Byrne ...

... who was the equivalent to Grant Morrison in Animal Man.

btw, Unless I'm missing something in the scans presented,
the Aliens are just as cartoony as She-Hulk. (ink is ink)

You are missing the point entirely.

Again, the Aliens' superiority here HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ABILITY TO BREAK THE FOURTH WALL.

How many times to I have to keep saying this?

DeadpoolXXX Fraggin' Bastiches

wait so the argument is that because shehulk "killed" her writer the yellow aliens arent as powerful?

wth is going on here lol?

lobos performed 4th wall antics that would put shehulk to absolute shame but i still recognise that those feats dont lessen the aliens. ****ing hell.

Mr Master Junior Member

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

lobos performed 4th wall antics that would put shehulk to absolute shame

but i still recognise that those feats dont lessen the aliens. ****ing hell.


Really? ... So Lobo killed his writer and artist?

Scans?

Also, She-Hulk literally broke the 4th wall in every way imaginable across 50 issues straight.

All kinds of crazy. You have no idea obviously to make such a statement.

Finally killing her own writer and artist. 👆

Mr Master Junior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

These battles take place in a neutral universe, with all of the characters' abilities operating to their max capacity. IOW, the Aliens' fundamental role as agents of the real world staff still applies. That IS their powerset.


So Beyonder stomps then. The Aliens power is inherent with a DC writer, not Marvel.

RW writer avatars are beneath Beyonder anyway.

Senseless? ... no more senseless than anything being considered "literal" here.

DeadpoolXXX Fraggin' Bastiches

Originally posted by Mr Master
Really? ... So Lobo killed his writer and artist?

Scans?

Also, She-Hulk literally broke the 4th wall in every way imaginable across 50 issues straight.

All kinds of crazy. You have no idea obviously to make such a statement.

Finally killing her own writer and artist. 👆

lobo beat the shit out of every writer and artist on his title (even the editor of the company). hes physically pulled in writers from off panel just to talk shit to them, hes killed people in his own book at the bidding of the editors just to extend his series by a few issues, and he was legit writing his own story tow2ard the end of his series.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Mr Master
So Beyonder stomps then. The Aliens power is inherent with a DC writer, not Marvel.

RW writer avatars are beneath Beyonder anyway.

Senseless? ... no more senseless than anything being considered "literal" here.

facepalm

BrolyBlack Restricted

Does anyone notice how all of the 4th wall breakers end up being goofy characters?

Pool, Mxyz, she hulk, lobo.

These characters are not meant to be taken seriously in their 4th wall feats In relation to say a Beyonder or TOAA.

TOAA and Beyonder could casually end any of them in a actual battle.

Lobos 4th wall feats are fcking dumb as is she hulks and mxzy. No one goes to buy comics for these clowns.

Beyonder is a cool ass character. I would buy his comics.

And to boot he’s fcking ridiculous powerful. So it’s really cool.

Mr Master Junior Member

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

1) lobo beat the shit out of every writer and artist on his title (even the editor of the company).

2) hes physically pulled in writers from off panel just to talk shit to them,

3) hes killed people in his own book at the bidding of the editors just to extend his series by a few issues,

4) and he was legit writing his own story tow2ard the end of his series.


1) So has She-Hulk. She broke in Marvel headquarters and phuked everyone up.

2) So did She-Hulk. She was intimidating Byrne the entire run.

3) So did She-Hulk. Only she was completely controlling the writer and artist and editor.

4) So did She-Hulk, half the series of 50 issues she was directing Byrne.

=================================

So I see Lobo never killed his writer and artist in your list.

Therefore, I'm still waiting on what puts her to shame?

Because according to your list, it's She-Hulk putting Lobo to shame.👆

DeadpoolXXX Fraggin' Bastiches

Originally posted by BrolyBlack
Does anyone notice how all of the 4th wall breakers end up being goofy characters?

Pool, Mxyz, she hulk, lobo.

These characters are not meant to be taken seriously in their 4th wall feats In relation to say a Beyonder or TOAA.

TOAA and Beyonder could casually end any of them in a actual battle.

Lobos 4th wall feats are fcking dumb as is she hulks and mxzy. No one goes to buy comics for these clowns.

Beyonder is a cool ass character. I would buy his comics.

And to boot he’s fcking ridiculous powerful. So it’s really cool.

beyonder is one of the most boring, shit characters ever created. he lacks depth. he lack substance. he lacks anything that makes a character enjoyable on any level.

the only thing he had going for him was power.

Mr Master Junior Member

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX

beyonder is one of the most boring, shit characters ever created.
he lacks depth. he lack substance.
he lacks anything that makes a character enjoyable on any level.

Interesting, and yet, SWI and II and the best selling Marvel series of all time.

So Lobo never killed his writer and artist.

Still waiting on what he's done that puts She-Hulk to shame.