Originally posted by TempAccount
I live in the states and am not in favor of universal healthcare.I'm willing to make compromises for juveniles, and subsidize initial ER treatment costs related to trauma-related accidents, but overall too many people in this country are chronically unhealthy to make any sort of universal healthcare system work. Hospitals are not centralized and have a very wide array of subpar to excellent quality control measures. Healthcare personnel are strained as is---allowing anyone to receive health-care for bullshit would be disastrous and simply lower the standard of care for everyone.
We live in a society where junk food is easier to obtain than healthy foods. People are fat, lazy, and ignorant about their health overall. Perhaps we can take baby steps over the course of decades to reach the end goal, but it ain't happening overnight.
What an odd post.
You state you're not in favor of a universal healthcare solution and then proceed to rather succinctly outline why Universal Healthcare is needed by naming all the problems it would target and solve.
What an odd post.You state you're not in favor of a universal healthcare solution and then proceed to rather succinctly outline why Universal Healthcare is needed by naming all the problems it would target and solve.
Providing solutions that require effort doesn't mean it solves problems:
We live in a society where junk food is easier to obtain than healthy foods. People are fat, lazy, and ignorant about their health overall.
Because people that have problems associated with laziness will never be solved by govt solutions that are basically optional. In other words giving more healthcare won't make more people eat/exercise more.......
I still think a universal platform can work but I dont for a second believe that lazy sick people will stop being lazy sick people with bad eating habits.
I have a super simple solution to make america healthy ban alcohol, fast food, candy and require 30 minutes of exercise a day.........it's a free solution that will readily improve the QOL and health of all involved.......problems solved....🙂
Originally posted by snowdragon
Providing solutions that require effort doesn't mean it solves problems:Because people that have problems associated with laziness will never be solved by govt solutions that are basically optional. In other words giving more healthcare won't make more people eat/exercise more.......
I still think a universal platform can work but I dont for a second believe that lazy sick people will stop being lazy sick people with bad eating habits.
I have a super simple solution to make america healthy ban alcohol, fast food, candy and require 30 minutes of exercise a day.........it's a free solution that will readily improve the QOL and health of all involved.......problems solved....🙂
Banning alcohol didn’t work the way we wanted the first time, and since Americans have only become more narcissistic as time goes on, good luck.
Worse yet, you add fast food to the mix! Anyone government that ties would be assassinated so quickly our heads would spin.
Banning alcohol didn’t work the way we wanted the first time, and since Americans have only become more narcissistic as time goes on, good luck.Worse yet, you add fast food to the mix! Anyone government that ties would be assassinated so quickly our heads would spin.
I was being sarcastic, many health problems that the USA faces are that of overindulgence and simply creating universal healthcare will NEVER fix that problem. Lazy people that get diabetes 2, obesity, heart conditions are some of the serious problems that are lowering life expectancies in the USA, problems that need to be solved by the individual.
Originally posted by snowdragon
Providing solutions that require effort doesn't mean it solves problems:Because people that have problems associated with laziness will never be solved by govt solutions that are basically optional. In other words giving more healthcare won't make more people eat/exercise more.......
I still think a universal platform can work but I dont for a second believe that lazy sick people will stop being lazy sick people with bad eating habits.
I have a super simple solution to make america healthy ban alcohol, fast food, candy and require 30 minutes of exercise a day.........it's a free solution that will readily improve the QOL and health of all involved.......problems solved....🙂
Let me get this right:
Because modern society has easier access to poor-quality food, we shouldn't implement a solution that directly addresses this problem in a much better way than the current corrupt and ineffective system in the US?
Let's put it a different way: the UK has a healthcare system that is so much better than the US's system that we look like barbarians in comparison. And their healthcare system is plagued with it's own problems. The UK is also going through an obesity epidemic and are slated to surpass the US in obesity rates in the 2020s.
Okay, so what about Japan?
What I'm reading is still the same: complaints about problems to avoid universal healthcare but those problems will be directly addressed and improved under the UH option.
It's like protesting against building roads.
"People are getting injuries from walking through this rocky terrain!"
"Okay, build roads. Save money on trip costs and injuries. Simple."
"But people are getting injuries on the rocky terrain! We can't possibly build the roads!"
Because modern society has easier access to poor-quality food, we shouldn't implement a solution that directly addresses this problem in a much better way than the current corrupt and ineffective system in the US?
That isn't what I said, I simply piggybacked on what kurk was saying.
When obesity and things associated with said diagnosis cause a significant problem for a population there is no insurance in the world that will cure a lack of discipline or bad habits.
It's like protesting against building roads."People are getting injuries from walking through this rocky terrain!"
"Okay, build roads. Save money on trip costs and injuries. Simple."
"But people are getting injuries on the rocky terrain! We can't possibly build the roads!"
That's not a good example as it relates to what was discussed. No one makes someone overeat and not exercise and there isn't a road you can build in the world to fix people that choose to partake in said behaviors because that isn't the job of health insurance.
The UK has this problem already so we can see the problems and burdens it produces without a fix to the problem.
Originally posted by dadudemonOkay, so what about Japan?
In Japan, fat-shaming is the norm. Citizens over 40 undergo annual waist-line measurements. Those exceeding normal parameters are essentially involuntarily entered into a "weight-watchers" program. Also obviously Japanese people are extremely hard-working and have societal and dietary factors contributing to their overall healthiness. Thus, their universal health-care system is far more of a preventative maintenance type of system rather than one which pours money into treating preventable chronic conditions.
Originally posted by snowdragon
That isn't what I said, I simply piggybacked on what kurk was saying.When obesity and things associated with said diagnosis cause a significant problem for a population there is no insurance in the world that will cure a lack of discipline or bad habits.
That's not a good example as it relates to what was discussed. No one makes someone overeat and not exercise and there isn't a road you can build in the world to fix people that choose to partake in said behaviors because that isn't the job of health insurance.
The UK has this problem already so we can see the problems and burdens it produces without a fix to the problem.
To both points, the answer is the same: the UH option literally directly addresses that. The road comparison is spot on but you don't realize it because you don't understand why a UH option is better for that particular problem. Please let me know if you do understand and I will apologize for my faulty assumption.
Check it out: you can be fat and healthier under the UH option. When your system transforms from a reactive emergency solution to a preventative solution that is affordable to the masses, you healthcare costs drastically drop and the people get access to better services. Guess which of those services falls under the preventative healthcare option? You guessed it, diet and weight management.
I can hear the Price is Right "correct guess" bell dinging and the cheesy music playing, now.
Also, one of the biggest benefits of the UH option is a central location where health information is stored and managed. One case file. Have you ever moved and had to pay $200 to have your medical records copied to your new physician's office? What about your dentist. The ability to have continuity of records across one system instead of thousands, alone, vastly improves the quality of care that can be provided. Preventative care and looking for potential life threatening scenarios (such as contraindicated pharmaceutical regimens) is much easier to do.
Check it out: you can be fat and healthier under the UH option. When your system transforms from a reactive emergency solution to a preventative solution that is affordable to the masses, you healthcare costs drastically drop and the people get access to better services. Guess which of those services falls under the preventative healthcare option? You guessed it, diet and weight management.
Yeah, I know the solution is sick care and not health care. 99% of folks covered under healthcare today by law have access to "preventative" health care and even if they didn't it just falls under a doctor office copay.
I'm for Uhealthcare but I know it will not cure obesity (that's not its job,) I know that people with chronic illness disorder such as obesity/diabtes2/heart problems will be part of the 10% healthcare users that also use 90% of the budget. There is literally nothing that can take away from that fact.
I have said it before but I have a background in health insurance and group benefits, I've reviewed claim reports and explained them to people, created insurance policies for large co-op groups that allowed multiple different businesses to form up for the purchase of insurance (of course that was never the "prupose" of the group 😉 ) I literally lived in that system and communicated with people who used and created the products daily.
None of what you said takes away from kurks facts that many health problems we face are caused by poor lifestyle choices and not from lack of insurance.
https://www.uniassignment.com/essay-samples/health/fighting-obesity-in-the-uk-health-essay.php
Obesity remains one of the most significant global public health problems along with tobacco use and alcohol consumption leading to non-communicable diseases (NCDs). Yet there is no effective policy that could solve the problem in the long run
Originally posted by snowdragon
I have said it before but I have a background in health insurance and group benefits, I've reviewed claim reports and explained them to people, created insurance policies for large co-op groups that allowed multiple different businesses to form up for the purchase of insurance (of course that was never the "prupose" of the group 😉 ) I literally lived in that system and communicated with people who used and created the products daily.
Same background but I got to deal with Medicare and Medicaid, as well, and I saw how much better that system was.
Originally posted by snowdragon
None of what you said takes away from kurks facts that many health problems we face are caused by poor lifestyle choices and not from lack of insurance.
Yes what I said directly takes away from those facts. You're operating under an insurance program, already. You're already talking about something not applicable to the topic. Unless, of course, the employer provided insurance penalizes the employees on your policy for smoking and obesity. 🙂
Then we'd be talking about the same topic.
Under a UH option, poor lifestyle choices still result in better healthcare outcomes than the tens of millions of people who cannot afford healthcare. Do you understand that you're bringing up people who do not even apply to this topic? You're talking about people already on insurance getting to use insurance at generally affordable rates. Not that 150 million other people in the US which causes us to have the most expensive healthcare, per person, in the world, by far.
Originally posted by snowdragon
Obesity remains one of the most significant global public health problems along with tobacco use and alcohol consumption leading to non-communicable diseases (NCDs). [B]Yet there is no effective policy that could solve the problem in the long run [/B]
And the Obesity Action Committee says the solution is Prevention and Treatment, not just one or the other, both of which would be run much better under a UH option.
🙂
This is a lose-lose-lose-lose topic to discuss.
In a nutshell :
We live in a society where junk food is easier to obtain than healthy foods. People are fat, lazy, and ignorant about their health overall. Perhaps we can take baby steps over the course of decades to reach the end goal, but it ain't happening overnight.
Check it out: you can be fat and healthier under the UH option. When your system transforms from a reactive emergency solution to a preventative solution that is affordable to the masses, you healthcare costs drastically drop and the people get access to better services. Guess which of those services falls under the preventative healthcare option? You guessed it, diet and weight management.
I'm for Uhealthcare but I know it will not cure obesity (that's not its job,)
The problem is obesity, UH won't cure it. That is the problem I addressed in regards to Kurk. Your posting the benefits of UH doesn't change the fact it won't cure obesity.
The only cure for obesity is for individuals to take better care of themselves prior to that state, UH is a bandaid. That isn't a diss on UH whose job it is to make sick people live longer many times without having them modify behaviors until said people realize their own mortality.
I do favor it with restrictions. People who live chronically unhealthy lifestyles use far more healthcare than healthy people. It's also interesting to note that 80% of all heathcare costs are for people in the last year of their life.
Then there's the cost of a medical degree, approaching $500,000 just for a General Practioner, a specialist is more. We would also have to subsidize this, something I am in favor of
And then malpractice insurance, over $100K annually for most doctors, would also have to reform this as well, something I also agree with. Lets put some lawyers out of business.
And I do agree with cutting our military budger, let huge global corporations incur their own expenses.
@snowd
Ultimately is does fall on people helping themselves, as you can't force people to not be obese; they have to want to do it. But if you're 400+ lbs, morbidly obese and end up in the hospital, with no insurance it will likely be an ER visit that they treat at the time and then you're released and the tax payer ultimately picks up the bill and this cycle will likely just repeat itself until death comes.
With universal healthcare, this hypothetical 400+ lbs person could both get that ER visit treatment (paid through insurance) and further assistance to help them lose the weight via counselors, coaching and whatnot.
And there will always be certain people who simply will not change no matter what, you can throw all the healthcare, counseling and weight loss pamphlets at them and they'll simply snub their nose and go about being sedentary while eating the worst processed foods possible. But we shouldn't deny others what should be a right in a modern country because of this lot.
Originally posted by Robtard
@snowdUltimately is does fall on people helping themselves, as you can't force people to not be obese; they have to want to do it. But if you're 400+ lbs, morbidly obese and end up in the hospital, with no insurance it will likely be an ER visit that they treat at the time and then you're released and the tax payer ultimately picks up the bill and this cycle will likely just repeat itself until death comes.
With universal healthcare, this hypothetical 400+ lbs person could both get that ER visit treatment (paid through insurance) and further assistance to help them lose the weight via counselors, coaching and whatnot.
And there will always be certain people who simply will not change no matter what, you can throw all the healthcare, counseling and weight loss pamphlets at them and they'll simply snub their nose and go about being sedentary while eating the worst processed foods possible. But we shouldn't deny others what should be a right in a modern country because of this lot.
Yes, I simply agreed with Kurks sentiment about lazy americans and know the having universal healthcare will not cure that problem, no matter what anyone wants to believe. As shown by the current system in the UK:
So let's look at the UK who are actually dealing with this situation and has universal healthcare and see what they say:
Nearly two-thirds of adults (63%) in England were classed as being overweight (a body mass index of over 25) or obese (a BMI of over 30) in 2015.In England, the proportion who were categorized as obese increased from 13.2% of men in 1993 to 26.9% in 2015 and from 16.4% of women in 1993 to 26.8% in 2015. The rate of increase has slowed down since 2001, although the trend is still upwards.
So weird, I thought a universal healthcare system would fix this problem or at the very least slow it down and yet we find that to not be true based on historical figures of a country running UHC.
I am for UHC something like the system used in France. Many posts have been made about that topic 😉
Originally posted by snowdragon
In a nutshell :The problem is obesity, UH won't cure it. That is the problem I addressed in regards to Kurk. Your posting the benefits of UH doesn't change the fact it won't cure obesity.
The only cure for obesity is for individuals to take better care of themselves prior to that state, UH is a bandaid. That isn't a diss on UH whose job it is to make sick people live longer many times without having them modify behaviors until said people realize their own mortality.
Sort of. We are still not quite talking about the same thing.
UH is not the bandaid - it is almost all of the solution. It covers both angles that need to be addressed: Prevention and Treatment.
Education falls under the prevention portion. And other countries do run education programs as part of their healthcare solutions. UK, Japan, etc. You know, places that run healthcare better than the US does.
Imagine how amazing the NHS would be if each individual paid as much, on average, as Americans do? They'd cure all cancers in less than a year. We are talking nearly tripling their budget per person, on average. I cannot even fathom that.
Also, I will never support regulating food out of people's mouths unless it is demonstrably toxic or poisonous. (It becomes a hazards and poisons problem). Just because people are fat and overeat does not mean it needs to be regulated. But fat lazy people DO need to be penalized. The NHS does it. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
But fat lazy people DO need to be penalized. The NHS does it. 🙂
I'm assuming the penalties would be higher rates/taxes for people who fail to meet a sensible level of improvement over the course of a year or more?
How then do you deal with the problem of say my hypothetical 400+ lbs obese person who simply will not change and keeps ending up in the hospital, but now is too poor to tax higher, otherwise he's going to also need housing and food assistance?
(I'm all for UH, playing devil's advocate in regards to issues that would arise)
Originally posted by Robtard
I'm assuming the penalties would be higher rates/taxes for people who fail to meet a sensible level of improvement over the course of a year or more?How then do you deal with the problem of say my hypothetical 400+ lbs obese person who simply will not change and keeps ending up in the hospital, but now is too poor to tax higher, otherwise he's going to also need housing and food assistance?
(I'm all for UH, playing devil's advocate in regards to issues that would arise)
I'll bet someone like Bentley, Jaden or Putin could answer what they do in countries with UHC, I'm willing to be that they would be placed on some disability pay and housing project and have family assist in their care.
That is one of the challenges faced when a country provides benefits and services, when do they provide soft solutions vs hard solutions.....ie a pamphlet is a soft solution, a fat boot camp would be a hard solution.
Very overweight people are pretty much considered disabled for all intents an purposes, they get special programs to get a job, aid at their home and a lot of monetary support and services. You probably need to fill some requirements to fully have Access to all that though, which probably includes physical therapy and some degree of management for your dietary habits.