Originally posted by zopzop
"Infinite" power that only created a multiverse (I don't buy it considering the writer waffled back and forth in later issues but whatever).Here are POST RETCON MM and Beyonder displaying TRANS MULTIVERSAL power :
Beyonder indeed solos.
Dream has warped entire creation by just dreams of a thousand people from beginning to the end of time.
And he is below Lucifer.
Originally posted by zopzop
"Infinite" power that only created a multiverseHere are POST RETCON MM and Beyonder displaying TRANS MULTIVERSAL power :
--------------------------------------------------
LT states: Calm, restricted Owen is "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"
And this Owen is a joke next to unleashed Owen in this story.
--------------------------------------------------
Both Beyonder and unleashed Owen are BEYOND Multiversal beings:
--------------------------------------------------
Heck, even if Beyonder just dies, as a side-affect it would phuk up the Multiverse:
============================
During their battle,
before they warped entire UniverseS across the Multiverse and the infinite MultiverseS BEYOND,
they: "spanned places of existence for which there are no human words or thought,
employed energies to which the raging hearts of Galaxies are guttering candle flames,
the laws of physics are tortured beyond recognition, and eventually shattered."
============================
The writer gave us a few examples of the intent in his story by highlighting several feats.
Obviously he wasn't going to involve circular examples
when we get the point via narration coupled with the feats.
They affected every reality in every Multiverse. That was the writer's intent. 👆
Below I posted a few:
============================
They created an alternate Superman:
--------------------------------------------------
They blind a Watcher in another universe:
--------------------------------------------------
They warp an entire universe by adding a Dimensional space to it:
Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalmThat's from "Dream of a thousand cats in dream country" ...
and it has absolutely nothing to do with Morpheus.
Unless you're under the impression that Morpheus shaped the Presence. 😂
Presence isn't created by dreams, what an asinine interpretation.
Originally posted by Mr Master
👆--------------------------------------------------
[b]LT states
: Calm, restricted Owen is "one of the most powerful beings in all creation"And this Owen is a joke next to unleashed Owen in this story.
--------------------------------------------------
Both Beyonder and unleashed Owen are BEYOND Multiversal beings:
--------------------------------------------------
Heck, even if Beyonder just dies, as a side-affect it would phuk up the Multiverse:
============================
During their battle,
before they warped entire UniverseS across the Multiverse and the infinite MultiverseS BEYOND,
they: "spanned places of existence for which there are no human words or thought,
employed energies to which the raging hearts of Galaxies are guttering candle flames,
the laws of physics are tortured beyond recognition, and eventually shattered."============================
The writer gave us a few examples of the intent in his story by highlighting several feats.
Obviously he wasn't going to involve circular examples
when we get the point via narration coupled with the feats.
They affected every reality in every Multiverse. That was the writer's intent. 👆
[/B]
Hardly that impressive.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Trans multiversal power which doesn't even destroy anything but rather makes reality tremble.
Time Variance Authority handles disturbance in time. Your own scan says that. But since you're talking about disturbance in time as a feat, here's a favorite of mine.
And it was specified that it was due to how powerful he was.
But hey, that just shows post retcon Beyonder is more powerful than pre retcon Beyonder if you want to go to FEATS route. Unless you show Beyonder doing such a feat pre retcon.
What the hell does that universal feat have to do with Owen/Beyonder's omniversal feat?
Originally posted by abhilegend
Presence isn't created by dreams, what an asinine interpretation.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hardly that impressive.
and across the infinite MultiverseS beyond, is no big deal. facepalm
Originally posted by zopzop
That fight caused transmultiversal damage :The Time Variance Authority was sh|tting it's pants trying to correct the damage those two did.
The Time Variance Authority's influence and charge is OMNIVERSAL in scope :
Originally posted by abhilegend
Time Variance Authority blah blah blah gibberish.
Originally posted by abhilegend
But hey, that just shows post retcon Beyonder is more powerful than pre retcon Beyonderif you want to go to FEATS route.
Originally posted by Mr Master
What the hell does that universal feat have to do with Owen/Beyonder's omniversal feat?
Omniversal?
😂
They made multiverse tremble, big ****ing deal.
Yes, the writer's own description is an 'interpretation?" ... And, .. "asinine" at that. 😐
Your interpretation is asinine.
Yes, of course, warping realities and reality within realities across the infinite Multiverse,
and across the infinite MultiverseS beyond, is no big deal. facepalm
Uh, what? Trans multiversal only means that the affect were felt across the multiverse and possibly beyond it but nowhere near omniversal level.
👆 ... But you know, it's Marvel performing here so ... dismissed!
Annnnnd the proverbial ever present lowball.
fail ... Now that's "asinine."
Right, says the perennial highballer of everything in marvel.
Cry harder.
Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalmThat's from "Dream of a thousand cats in dream country" ...
and it has absolutely nothing to do with Morpheus.
Unless you're under the impression that Morpheus shaped the Presence. 😂
Originally posted by Mr MasterIt is asinine, though. A plethora of on panel evidence(mixed with a dash of common sense) tells us that.
Yes, the writer's own description is an 'interpretation?" ... And, .. "asinine" at that. 😐
Sandman #18(the issue Carey is referencing in that post) introduced the concept that 'dreams shape reality':
http://i.imgur.com/QWkFwy2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EzRhw5e.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5AwmUkc.jpg
Nothing more.
However, implying that dreams are what shaped THE Supreme Being/Presence, implies that the Presence is reliant on the dreams of others to exist. This subsequently implies that Dream of the Endless holds a degree of power over the Presence... Which we know is absolutely NOT the case, as Morpheus explicitly told us where his power stood in comparison to that of Lucifer(who is obviously < God):
**Carey himself confirmed the same in the letters section of his Lucifer series(which also holds more validity than a Twitter post):
Additionally, if the Presence were reliant on the dreams of others to exist, then the dreamers would have to PREDATE him, which they canonically do not. First came The Presence. Then came Michael/Lucifer. Then came everything else. Per Carey, it was Lucifer and Michael who fashioned the original creation, ex nihilo...
Death confirmed this here:
http://i.imgur.com/jL3D9yk.jpg
Yahweh himself confirmed it here:
http://i.imgur.com/kCqJyI0.jpg
**Dreamers weren't required before this could happen.
The Presence was also willing to obliterate ALL creation "ab aeterno"(ie. from the beginning of time) just to start fresh again:
http://i.imgur.com/XuutcB8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VlVrw04.jpg
"NOTHING will die, because NOTHING will have EVER been."
**If his existence were dependent on dreamers, then he wouldn't be willing to casually obliterate creation/dreamers like that.
___________________
And further evidence(from Gaiman himself, in fact) tells us that Father Time and Mother Night were the first concepts in existence, and their union is what birthed ALL versions of creation, along with The Endless themselves, and most importantly: DREAMERS:
http://i.imgur.com/zE3ShhE.jpg
The pertinent excerpt:
**Again, the concepts predate the dreamers... Not the other way around. And that's according to the same guy who wrote the aforementioned Sandman issue.
Suffice to say: this, again, is why Twitter posts are NOT admissible as primary evidence on the forum. They don't override decadeS-worth of established on panel fact.
Originally posted by Galan007
However, implying that dreams are what shaped THE Supreme Being/Presence,implies that the Presence is reliant on the dreams of others to exist.
This subsequently implies that Dream of the Endless
holds a degree of power over the Presence...
Which we know is absolutely NOT the caseas Morpheus explicitly told us
where his power stood in comparison to that of Lucifer(who is obviously < God)
The Presence is not dependent on dreamers or dreams, and Morpheus is nothing to the Presence.
Morpheus had nothing to do with "Dream of a Thousand Cats."
The concept of "dreaming' in that story predates the abstract Morpheus/Dream.
------------------------------------------------------------
In Carey's cosmology, The Presence is "God" infinite and eternal.
The only catch is, that the reason he is "God" all and forever,
is cause the sentient beings of the universe dreamed him as such.
A new history. He now predates everything, because he was imagined as such.
They (sentient beings) "changed the universe's history from beginning to end"
"So it ALWAYS was the way it is Now" 🙂
---------------------------------------------------
Both Carey's and Gaiman are atheist, don't know if yall know.
Evidently they're taking their own beliefs and translating it by mixing it with biblical bullshit.
---------------------------------------------------
Bottomline: As my original reply to ibetroll,
concerned giving Morpheus credit for the feat in "Dream of a Thousand Cats."
It actually has nothing to do with Morpheus or his personal power.
dude its like you dont even read what people post.
in careys cosmology the presence existed before absolutely EVERYTHING. thats why he had the ability to wipe out all existence ab-aeterno...... BEFORE ANYTHING EVER EXISTED just to start things over again. he doesnt need dreamers in order to exist lmao.
and like galaan already said- every bit of canon evidence tells us that the presences concepts like time and night existed BEFORE the dreamers as well.
twitter bullshit has no place in a serious debate. thats why its against the rules. if you keep posting that in my thread ill report you.
😂 ... at "reporting" me. ... wait ... lmao
I haven't acknowledged your existence since you were banned the first time for trolling.
Yet, I'll reply to you this ONE time, and never again.
Only because, you seem to delusion-ally believe I'll give any value
to your cheerleading secondary regurgitated input that he already posted.
It's just to update you how you can assist every member against me,
and,
I'll never give a rat's ass cause you'll be on ignore so I won't notice the KT cycle.
Back on topic. And back On Panel! yawn
Originally posted by Mr Master------------------------------------------------------------
In Carey's cosmology, The Presence is "God" infinite and eternal.
The only catch is, that the reason he is "God" all and forever,
is cause the sentient beings of the universe dreamed him as such.A new history. He NOW predates everything, because he was imagined as such.
They (sentient beings) "changed the universe's" history "from beginning to end"
"So it ALWAYS was the way it is Now" 💃
---------------------------------------------------
Bottomline: As my original reply to ibetroll,
concerned giving Morpheus credit for the feat in "Dream of a Thousand Cats."It actually has nothing to do with Morpheus or his personal power.
It doesn't devalue the Presence because as it is,
the Presence WAS, and IS, and DID everything Galan already posted,
because history was changed and it became what "always" was.
Real trippy stuff dude. I like it. doped
Since this was obviously the very first creation, (in Carey's view)
a time when there were no sentient concepts or even the Presence,
this "dreaming" feat was possible.
Once they shaped the idea of the infinite/eternal Presence into being,
that possibility of changing reality via group "dreaming" was/is longer available.
Because NOW the Presence is all-powerful, and there's a Dream King,
and other sentient concepts,
because it all changed and this is NOW history.
ie. NO! ... 1000 random "dreamers" can not influence and/or affect the Presence in any way NOW.
Not 1000, not all creation dreaming as one. History changed.
The Presence was made manifest and became the shit, and ALWAYS was due to history changing.
------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate being able to look into this more in-depth
due to the discussion I had with the true debaters. 🙂
It's actually beautifully conceptualized Carey's vision. The thought wrenching idea is masterful.
Originally posted by Mr Master
😂 ... at "reporting" me. ... wait ... lmaoI haven't acknowledged your existence since you were banned the first time for trolling.
Yet, I'll reply to you this ONE time, and never again.
Only because, you seem to delusion-ally believe I'll give any value
to your cheerleading secondary regurgitated input that he already posted.It's just to update you how you can assist every member against me,
and,
I'll never give a rat's ass cause you'll be on ignore so I won't notice the KT cycle.Back on topic. And back On Panel! yawn
👆 ... It makes perfect sense with the Writer's own description and its fascinating writing.
It doesn't devalue the Presence because as it is,
the Presence WAS, and IS, and DID everything Galan already posted,
because history was changed and it became what "always" was.Real trippy stuff dude. I like it. doped
Since this was obviously the very first creation, (in Carey's view)
a time when there were no sentient concepts or even the Presence,
this "dreaming" feat was possible.Once they shaped the idea of the infinite/eternal Presence into being,
that possibility of changing reality via group "dreaming" was/is longer available.Because NOW the Presence is all-powerful, and there's a Dream King,
and other sentient concepts,
because it all changed and this is NOW history.ie. NO! ... 1000 random "dreamers" can not influence and/or affect the Presence in any way NOW.
Not 1000, not all creation dreaming as one. History changed.
The Presence was made manifest and became the shit, and ALWAYS was due to history changing.
------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate being able to look into this more in-depth
due to the discussion I had with the true debaters. 🙂It's actually beautifully conceptualized Carey's vision. The thought wrenching idea is masterful.
Cute fanfiction, but that's what it is. Let me guess, Dream was present in Cat world but Presence wasn't and somehow dreams changing the world to humans also changed Presence?
Marvelous, Dream retcons TOAA out of existence as well according to your fanfiction.
