Cheetah vs Thor

Originally posted by Philosophía
Now you're drawing false equivalencies and arguing against strawmen?

Nobody said Asgardians are human -- the same way Wolverine is a mutant -- but his feats don't count more than Batman's do.

Being non-human doesn't make you suddenly a consistent super-speedster -- nor does it make you feats count, while theirs doesn't.

We operate by feats, consistency and comparisons.

DS is right, in that both Thor and Street levelers tagging speedsters is PIS, and them tagging each other would not be, since they're all on the same level, far below speedsters.

Do you understand how your logic is non-existent?

And yes, being inhuman absolutely counts when it comes to the validity of feats, that's why Batman and Captain America are still only low meta. If some nameless human mugger punched Supes and knocked him for a loop with a punch I'd say "Bullshit". "Random League of Assassin ninja #8" surviving a full on punch from Doomsday will always be bullshit, "Random Kryptonian" surviving a full on punch from Doomsday... not so much.

Originally posted by darthgoober
So in your mind, a Kryptonian lacks any kind of super speed until he demonstrates some? And any feats he does get need to be weighed against the feats of guys like Batman and Captain America to determine just how superhuman he is? If I'm misinterpreting the implications of what you're saying then please forgive me, I just want to make sure we're clear on it going forward.

And yes, being inhuman absolutely counts when it comes to the validity of feats, that's why Batman and Captain America are still only low meta. If some nameless human mugger punched Supes and knocked him for a loop with a punch I'd say "Bullshit". "Random League of Assassin ninja #8" surviving a full on punch from Doomsday will always be bullshit, "Random Kryptonian" surviving a full on punch from Doomsday... not so much.

Being bitten by a spider, channel chi, being a mutant, being an asgardian -- none of these makes the speed feats matter more than others. Feats, consistency and direct superiority are what matter. In that way -- Thor -- and street levelers [pick whatever you want -- Cap/Bats, or Wolverine/Spidey/Iron Fist etc. etc.] -- tagging each other is not PIS, since they're all relatively on the same level, under classical speedsters [i.e. speed demon and whatnot], and vastly, vastly, under more acomplished speedsters [i.e. Jay Garrick, Jesse Quick and whatnot], and vastly, vastly [...] vastly under the upper echalon [Flash/Supes etc].

Ergo, Darksaint is right. You are wrong.

In order to prove that Thor getting hit by Cap is PIS, you'd have to prove that Thor has the direct comparisons to street levelers in general that he is far faster [spoilers: he doesn't, it's literally the opposite when he has admitted Logan is faster than him] and indirect comparison through qualitative and quantitative feats in his 60+ years history that he is faster [spoilers: he doesn't].

As such, you're making argumentative fallacies all over the place, have no solid ground to stand on, and white knighting yourself into oblivion.

We've moved from 'its happened in a comic, so it counts', to 'even if it's happened in comics, let's ignore it because'.

Where does it end? Do mutants get more of a benefit of the doubt over aliens? What about mutant aliens? Do we allow for different alien species, so Martians get to be slower than Kryps?

What about Asgardians only having muscle density 3x humans? Does that mean Atlanteans, with their 10x muscle density, should be over three times stronger and faster than an Asgardian?

The average man can jog at 10mph. So an average Asgardian tops out at 30, and I call anything over that PIS?

Usain Bolt, our top sprinter, maxes at about 30mph, so the top Asgardian is 90mph, barring specific spells making them faster?

World's strongest man deadlifts 500kg, so the strongest Asgardian tops out at 1.5tons?

Aquaman tops out at 5tons, and anything above that is obviously PIS?

Originally posted by Philosophía
If Wolverine and Spiderman have identical feats with Batman and Captain America, we don't take Logan and Peter's as true, just because one is a mutant and one got bit by a Spider, and Bruce and Steve's as false, and say that Bruce and Steve tagging the formers is PIS. What kind of utter bullshit is this shit? Kryptonians are -- as I've pointed out -- a false analogy -- since the very definition of their powerset is that their physical abilities [i.e. among them speed] increases exponentially with the exposure they have inside the sun for all the members of the race. Stop this desperation with trying to move the discussion into fallacies -- even you're not that bad at this.

Being bitten by a spider, channel chi, being a mutant, being an asgardian -- none of these makes the speed feats matter more than others. Feats, consistency and direct superiority are what matter. In that way -- Thor -- and street levelers [pick whatever you want -- Cap/Bats, or Wolverine/Spidey/Iron Fist etc. etc.] -- tagging each other is not PIS, since they're all relatively on the same level, under classical speedsters [i.e. speed demon and whatnot], and vastly, vastly, under more acomplished speedsters [i.e. Jay Garrick, Jesse Quick and whatnot], and vastly, vastly [...] vastly under the upper echalon [Flash/Supes etc].

Ergo, Darksaint is right. You are wrong.

In order to prove that Thor getting hit by Cap is PIS, you'd have to prove that Thor has the direct comparisons to street levelers in general that he is far faster [spoilers: he doesn't, it's literally the opposite when he has admitted Logan is faster than him] and indirect comparison through qualitative and quantitative feats in his 60+ years history that he is faster [spoilers: he doesn't].

As such, you're making argumentative fallacies all over the place, have no solid ground to stand on, and white knighting yourself into oblivion.

Also, you seem to be trying to debate the exact level of Thor's speed with me but that's not actually something I'm trying to support one way or the other. However, just to put it out there so that we're debating a solid position and less of your stuff goes unanswered, I would say that Thor digging a large trench around a speeding Quicksilver before he can react would exceed the speed feats of any "street" level hero like Spiderman, Captain America, or Wolverine. You can totally disagree of course, I was just putting forth an example of why I keep mentioning that I don't think the street level guys can match his best stuff.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We've moved from 'its happened in a comic, so it counts', to 'even if it's happened in comics, let's ignore it because'.

Where does it end? Do mutants get more of a benefit of the doubt over aliens? What about mutant aliens? Do we allow for different alien species, so Martians get to be slower than Kryps?

What about Asgardians only having muscle density 3x humans? Does that mean Atlanteans, with their 10x muscle density, should be over three times stronger and faster than an Asgardian?

The average man can jog at 10mph. So an average Asgardian tops out at 30, and I call anything over that PIS?

Usain Bolt, our top sprinter, maxes at about 30mph, so the top Asgardian is 90mph, barring specific spells making them faster?

World's strongest man deadlifts 500kg, so the strongest Asgardian tops out at 1.5tons?

Aquaman tops out at 5tons, and anything above that is obviously PIS?

I can't speak for where others draw the line when it comes to interpreting how the forum rules should be applied in individual debates, but personally I try to let logic and common sense be my guide because when I first joined and Digi was a mod that's basically how such things were determined by him and I've always liked that precept. Obviously, that kind of thing has a huge potential for variance from person to person but I prefer the idea of making that attempt than I do making an attempt at getting the mods to draw up some kind of ultra detailed debate formula so clear that no one ever disagrees on how to interpret the rules lol

Originally posted by darthgoober
And all Asgardians are naturally superhuman across the board(though to varying degrees). You may not like it, but it is what it is. That's not to say that the average Asgardian is anywhere close to the average powered up Kryptonian physically, but they're naturally superhuman when compared to the typical Earth resident. It's a basic part of being Asgardian. So yes, we judge Asgardianfeats in a manner more similar to the way we judge Kryptonians than typical human beings. An Asguardian doesn't have to take as many beatings from cl100 characters as Captain America to prove that he could survive such a beating because the idea that a deity(like a Kryptonian) could withstand such thing doesn't require the same level of suspension of disbelief as Cap doing the same.

Also, you seem to be trying to debate the exact level of Thor's speed with me but that's not actually something I'm trying to support one way or the other. However, just to put it out there so that we're debating a solid position and less of your stuff goes unanswered, I would say that Thor digging a large trench around a speeding Quicksilver before he can react would exceed the speed feats of any "street" level hero like Spiderman, Captain America, or Wolverine. You can totally disagree of course, I was just putting forth an example of why I keep mentioning that I don't think the street level guys can match his best stuff.

Do we?

There's nothing intrinsic to Asgardians that makes them speedsters, or superior to the likes of Batman, Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Deathstroke, Midnighter, Batgirl, etc. etc. etc.

Or taskmaster:

So we don't judge Thor either.

Now, my dear friend, you know I'm not the type to let you slide away, since I know you're quite slippery when cornered.

So.

If Wolverine and Spiderman have identical feats with Batman and Captain America, we don't take Logan and Peter's as true, just because one is a mutant and one got bit by a Spider, and Bruce and Steve's as false, and say that Bruce and Steve tagging the formers is PIS.

Your position on this was hilarious, so nice to see you try to side step away now 👆

Furthermore, I let it go since you weren't talking to me, but was your position that a feat done 40 years ago where Thor digs a trench by flying in a circle spinning his hammer turns this whole discussion on his head?

Originally posted by darthgoober
For me, it was largely his trench digging feats.

Trench digging by flying in a circle with his hammer spinning?

Convinces you more than Thor admitting Wolverine is faster?

Really?

More than Mongoose speedblitzing him?

Than Spiderman?

Than Daredevil?

Are you serious?

You judge characters not by their overall, but by one feat, and even that not impressive?

lmao, Goob. Simply lmao.

Originally posted by Philosophía
We don't judge an average asgardian - in terms of speed [which is the topic of discussion], as superior to street levelers.

Do we?

There's nothing intrinsic to Asgardians that makes them speedsters, or superior to the likes of Batman, Captain America, Spiderman, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Deathstroke, Midnighter, Batgirl, etc. etc. etc.

Or taskmaster:

So we don't judge Thor either.

Now, my dear friend, you know I'm not the type to let you slide away, since I know you're quite slippery when cornered.

So.

If Wolverine and Spiderman have identical feats with Batman and Captain America, we don't take Logan and Peter's as true, just because one is a mutant and one got bit by a Spider, and Bruce and Steve's as false, and say that Bruce and Steve tagging the formers is PIS.

Your position on this was hilarious, so nice to see you try to side step away now 👆

Furthermore, I let it go since you weren't talking to me, but was your position that a feat done 40 years ago where Thor digs a trench by flying in a circle spinning his hammer turns this whole discussion on his head?

Trench digging by flying in a circle with his hammer spinning?

Convinces you more than Thor admitting Wolverine is faster?

Really?

More than Mongoose speedblitzing him?

Than Spiderman?

Than Daredevil?

Are you serious?

You judge characters not by their overall, but by one feat, and even that not impressive?

lmao, Goob. Simply lmao.

He traps everyone including QS who was already speeding.
First he had to move quicker and outreact QS. Second, he directs the hammer's circular movement in a relatively small distance. This he had to do extremely fast because again even QS could not outspeed him. Also him spinning the hammer is a testament to the speed of his limbs. He gets out of the hammer how much he puts in. At the very least the initial thrust.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I do judge the average Asgardian as being superhuman. I don't judge the average human to be superhuman. Thus, Asgardians get more leeway than humans when judging their feats IMO, just as you give Kryptonians that same type of benefit of a doubt. That doesn't mean that I credit individual random Asgardians with anything specific in relation to other characters, it just means that I'm less skeptical of their feats. If Captain America punched a no name human thug as hard as he possibly could and the thug totally tanked it without flinching I would consider that to be a low end showing for Cap, if the same thing happened against an Asgardian... wouldn't mean a damn thing to me.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
About perception
Yeah but in comics theres skill fu, space fu, kung fu, and in tor's case theres god fu. Lol.

Sometimes he just reacts fast enuff. Something seems like theyre moving extremely fast, maybe even too fast for him.. Be it mach 1000 or near lightspeed, but at the point impact or right before that point, he does what he does. Its happened many times.
Maybe its part skill, maybe part perception, maybe part physical stats..? Maybe all of them are in play...

He does have heightened senses however. Thats for sure.

Thor definitely has superspeed and perceptions.
He can use the hammer to shield against handgun bullets and energy blasts (not necessarily light speed) from a distance of 30ft or more.

The problem is that Thor only needs to move his hammer a few inches when the object travels more than 30ft away. In other words, Thor has to move less than 30x slower to achieve a deflection.

Speedsters fighting Thor from close range would be a problem. Plus objects don't change their mind in mid air after seeing Thor is moving to block it. A speedster can be headed towards Thor from a distance. They see Thor moving slowly to intercept their path. The speedster reroutes and strikes Thor from a different angle before Thor can alter his motion significantly enough.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Which is where the disagreement comes in. You guys seem think that Asgardian's should basically be considered as human until they show something beyond, thus you view their feats with the same skepticism as you would someone like Night Thrasher. But Asgardians are a superhuman race so that falls flat. It's no different than insisting any specific Kryptonian show super speed multiple times to prove that he's faster than Night Thrasher IMO. Inherently inhuman characters have a lower bar to reach when it comes to supporting their inhuman abilities IMO.

But regardless, I was simply pointing out to DS that he was trying to have it both ways by saying that a non speedster tagging a speedster is PIS ever time while simultaneously saying that Thor getting tagged is relevant. Because if he had any showings to indicate that he was a speedster, then everything else would be PIS just as he said.

But Asgardians are made up of a bunch of different races. And many having different and unique abilities. So your Kryptonian analogy is faulty.

Asgardians are superhuman in strength and durability but not necessarily speed (they vary in that regard). Now Asgardians may possess superspeed, like Thor but it's not necessarily on the level of a true speedster. Remember, there are many levels of superspeed. I doubt anyone is saying that Thor does not have any form of superspeed.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I legitimately had to check if I accidentally clicked on the previous page because I feel like I'm in groundhog day. You just wasted my time, goob. Thanks, I guess.

Originally posted by h1a8
But Asgardians are made up of a bunch of different races. And many having different and unique abilities. So your Kryptonian analogy is faulty.

Asgardians are superhuman in strength and durability but not necessarily speed (they vary in that regard). Now Asgardians may possess superspeed, like Thor but it's not necessarily on the level of a true speedster. Remember, there are many levels of superspeed. I doubt anyone is saying that Thor does not have any form of superspeed.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thor definitely has superspeed and perceptions.
He can use the hammer to shield against handgun bullets and energy blasts (not necessarily light speed) from a distance of 30ft or more.

Originally posted by h1a8

The problem is that Thor only needs to move his hammer a few inches when the object travels more than 30ft away. In other words, Thor has to move less than 30x slower to achieve a deflection.

Speedsters fighting Thor from close range would be a problem. Plus objects don't change their mind in mid air after seeing Thor is moving to block it. A speedster can be headed towards Thor from a distance. They see Thor moving slowly to intercept their path. The speedster reroutes and strikes Thor from a different angle before Thor can alter his motion significantly enough.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Perceptions definitely beyond streets..

He is moving slowly to them. He's basically a statue. They go for the kill. Next thing u know, theyre on the ground massaging their jaw and asking themselves "wtf!?"

RIP Classic Marvel.

Don’t bother with H1. I could fill an entire page with Asgardian perception feats and it wouldn’t matter.

H1 is my friend.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Alright then... lol

My bad, I'm not using "Asgardian" to include things like trolls or elves, I'm talking strictly about the Gods.

But again, they are still different races with unique abilities. Loki is a frost giant that knows magic. Heimdall has unique abilities and isn't of the same race as Thor (DNA wise). In other words, Asgardians that look like humans don't necessarily have the DNA to say they are the same species.

All Asgardians are super strong and durable. Some Asgardians have some degree of superspeed (such as Thor). Being strong and fast does not make you automatically a speedster.

Make no mistake. No one here is saying that Thor do not have superhuman level speed and reactions (he does). It's just not to the level of say a true speedster (quicksilver, flash, cheetah, etc).

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Perceptions definitely beyond streets..

He is moving slowly to them. He's basically a statue. They go for the kill. Next thing u know, theyre on the ground massaging their jaw and asking themselves "wtf!?"

Yes Thor has superhuman level reactions and perceptions and speed.
No one is saying otherwise.

If anyone is hit by a slow motion entity or a statue while being aware of their motion then it is PIS.

Thor Faces Beings Allegedly faster then Cheetah Regularly(Gladiator,SS etc)..he has Godly Perception...saying she "Speedbliz" him is like saying she does it to Odin or Zeus...Not Happening..Thor is Part Elder God also...When are ppl gonna stop putting him in these Tiers..smh..Stop Judging him off Battles on Earth where he Holding back..Dude fights Destroyer, Mangog,Loki,Surtur,Glory..etc.

I'm sure you wouldn't do a "Cheetah vs Surtur match"

You may say this Jane..but its STILL THORS powers...If Batman Gets Flash powers and Goes 10x the Speed of Light,Pretty safe to Say Flash can do the same..but Only the Non logical would dispute that

AND its a Combat speed feat vs Someone well beyond Cheetah Tier.

Originally posted by h1a8
But again, they are still different races with unique abilities. Loki is a frost giant that knows magic. Heimdall has unique abilities and isn't of the same race as Thor (DNA wise). In other words, Asgardians that look like humans don't necessarily have the DNA to say they are the same species.

All Asgardians are super strong and durable. Some Asgardians have some degree of superspeed (such as Thor). Being strong and fast does not make you automatically a speedster.

Make no mistake. No one here is saying that Thor do not have superhuman level speed and reactions (he does). It's just not to the level of say a true speedster (quicksilver, flash, cheetah, etc).

You yourself view things a little differently than DS and phil so I'm going to use an example for you that's not really applicable to their stance(and if I misunderstand your general opinions please forgive me and feel free to correct the errors). You believe that anytime Batman or Cap do something like outrun a bullet or keep pace with someone like Spiderman that it's PIS, correct? You believe this because they're human and therefor by definition don't have superhuman speed, correct? Well Thor himself is a God which would bring him out of that basic category of being limited by being human. You yourself earlier acknowledged that he DOES have superhuman speed. I'm not talking about attributing any feats to Asgardians that they don't show, I'm talking about view their feats with less skepticism than Humans, which is what you do anyway(although personally, I give guys like Cap and Bats a little more slack than you).

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
RIP Classic Marvel.

Don’t bother with H1. I could fill an entire page with Asgardian perception feats and it wouldn’t matter.

Welcome back Rage