Spiderman: No Way Home (2021)

Originally posted by Psychotron
College-aged people are not children. They've been considered adults doing adult things for 99.9% of human history. Boys Peter's age raised families and fought in wars. The idea that anyone would

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bring a bunch of crazy supervillains to his mom's house is ridiculous. Even if we accept that he needed Otto and Norman's help because of their scientific knowledge, why the heck were Electro and Sandman there? They don't know jack about science.

Yeah and kids used to get married and hanged under the age of 10. But we're not talking about history, we are talking about a current day 17 year old whose at an age where he isn't deemed responsible enough to drink.

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Because Arrogance. Too much confidence he can control the situation. Was his Great Power/Great Responsibility lesson

That said quit acting like he had no sway over them at all. He had

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the nuclear button threat

Again there are ACTUAL plot holes in this, but you guys are obsessing over a typical, Hero naively tries to do the right thing but f***s up, scenario for some strange reason.

And at 18 he magically is deemed responsible enough 😂

Dude, he was after a SHITLOAD of superhero experiences.

And all we're asking for here is just some common sense --- which shouldn't be too hard, considering he is supposed to be a f*cking genius.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah and kids used to get married and hanged under the age of 10. But we're not talking about history, we are talking about a current day 17 year old whose at an age where he isn't deemed responsible enough to drink.

He had 5 movies of experience before this one. The naive, inexperienced kid gimmick doesn't work when you've fought multiple supervillains, aliens, died and came back to life etc. He's supposed to be a genius, too.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That said quit acting like he had no sway over them at all. He had

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the nuclear button threat

You mean

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the nuclear button threat

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it's a good idea to bring this guy to Happy's place where his civilan aunt lives. Oh and he didn't even ask Happy if he's okay with any of this.

Originally posted by Psychotron
He had 5 movies of experience before this one. The naive, inexperienced kid gimmick doesn't work when you've fought multiple supervillains, aliens, died and came back to life etc.

Mostly under mentorship.

Originally posted by Psychotron
He's supposed to be a genius, too.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

Intellect isn't maturity. You're mistaking IQ for Wisdom.

Originally posted by Psychotron
You mean

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the nuclear button threat

that didn't do anything to deter them? God, Norman outright admits that he's mentally ill and that he's not in control of himself and Peter still thinks

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it's a good idea to bring this guy to Happy's place where his civilan aunt lives. Oh and he didn't even ask Happy if he's okay with any of this.

The

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nuclear button which can send them all back if they get out of control.

Again his character flaw was arrogance that he can control the situation. Has nothing to do with IQ, and wasn't a plot hole. It was in fact the point of the plot.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Mostly under mentorship.

Okay, and? He should have learned something from that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Which has nothing to do with anything.

Intellect isn't maturity. You're mistaking IQ for Wisdom.

You're mistaking common sense for wisdom.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The

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nuclear button which can send them all back if they get out of control.

Again his character flaw was arrogance that he can control the situation. Has nothing to do with IQ, and wasn't a plot hole. It was in fact the point of the plot.

The

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nuclear button

That's kinda what we're saying. The plot is retarded and no sane 17-year-old would ever do what Peter did.

Originally posted by Psychotron
He had 5 movies of experience before this one.

And - unlike Garfield or Maguire - he actually was an active superhero before his first movie appearance (Civil War).

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

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Tom-Peter and Otto saw him on the bridge, bombing the shit out of it and flying towards them.

Norman has confessed right to their faces about his dual personality disorder, too. Didn't keep it a secret - as that was when Norman was in control, being honest with May and Peter.

Otto does confirm he is a threat once or twice, too.

With all that information (and hard proof back on the bridge), Peter really should've taken precautions.

And he is not that inexperienced, either - Mysterio pretended to be his friend and look where that got him.

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I wouldn't put Mysterio on Norman's level. And I'm not going to sit here and say Peter did the right thing; he obviously didn't. I just don't consider it to be bad writing that he did what he did. It's understandable, given his desire to see the best in people, Aunt May's influence, and how vulnerable Norman appeared.

Okay. But what you don't understand is that

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Norman was 100% honest with May and Parker, at least on the beginning --- and has confessed about his dual-personality problems, when he - Norman - was still in control. It wasn't some evil master plan, as you like to think of it.

Joining the Team Spidey was a conscious decision of him trying to do the right thing. You can easily argue that the Green Goblin personality resurfaced shortly after that (and sabotaged the cure, possibly) and was being kept hidden, but that wasn't the case on the beginning.

These two personalities hate each other, even in comics, they have different goals and modus operandi... even when they are both "evil", which isn't the case with the Raimi-Norman. We can see Raimi-Norman smashing his Goblin helmet with a rock. That was him fighting back, trying to be in control again. Same with him talking to May, revealing way more information than Goblin would wish.

And you can't ignore that kind of warning (Norman confessing, I mean), not when you've seen it with your own eyes (the bridge scene) and not when it's been confirmed by the resident from the same universe --- more than once, actually.

When you're dealing with the mental illness, "seeing the best in people" simply doesn't work. Not with such severe cases, anyway.

We're going in circles, I've said my part, we can keep it up, too... but I'm gonna say something positive now, for a change.

Absolutely loved how

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Norman started laughing, Heath Ledger-style, when Tom-Peter was wailing on him during their first fight. Against the wall.

Totally reminded me of the TDK interrogation scene. Except this time, the hero was dealing with someone who could physically fight back.

Wish Dafoe got more screen time.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Okay. But what you don't understand is that

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Norman was 100% honest with May and Parker, at least on the beginning --- and has confessed about his dual-personality problems, when he - Norman - was still in control. It wasn't some evil master plan, as you like to think of it.

Joining the Team Spidey was a conscious decision of him trying to do the right thing. You can easily argue that the Green Goblin personality resurfaced shortly after that (and sabotaged the cure, possibly) and was being kept hidden, but that wasn't the case on the beginning.

These two personalities hate each other, even in comics, they have different goals and modus operandi... even when they are both "evil", which isn't the case with the Raimi-Norman. We can see Raimi-Norman smashing his Goblin helmet with a rock. That was him fighting back, trying to be in control again. Same with him talking to May, revealing way more information than Goblin would wish.

And you can't ignore that kind of warning (Norman confessing, I mean), not when you've seen it with your own eyes (the bridge scene) and not when it's been confirmed by the resident from the same universe --- more than once, actually.

When you're dealing with the mental illness, "seeing the best in people" simply doesn't work. Not with such severe cases, anyway.

Agreed in full.

With everything I read except the last few lines because tl:dr.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Okay. But what you don't understand is that

Spoiler:
Norman was 100% honest with May and Parker, at least on the beginning --- and has confessed about his dual-personality problems, when he - Norman - was still in control. It wasn't some evil master plan, as you like to think of it.

Joining the Team Spidey was a conscious decision of him trying to do the right thing. You can easily argue that the Green Goblin personality resurfaced shortly after that (and sabotaged the cure, possibly) and was being kept hidden, but that wasn't the case on the beginning.

These two personalities hate each other, even in comics, they have different goals and modus operandi... even when they are both "evil", which isn't the case with the Raimi-Norman. We can see Raimi-Norman smashing his Goblin helmet with a rock. That was him fighting back, trying to be in control again. Same with him talking to May, revealing way more information than Goblin would wish.

And you can't ignore that kind of warning (Norman confessing, I mean), not when you've seen it with your own eyes (the bridge scene) and not when it's been confirmed by the resident from the same universe --- more than once, actually.

When you're dealing with the mental illness, "seeing the best in people" simply doesn't work. Not with such severe cases, anyway.

Which Peter learned as the movie went on.

Also, please don't presume I said or meant things when I didn't.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
We're going in circles, I've said my part, we can keep it up, too... but I'm gonna say something positive now, for a change.

Absolutely loved how

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Norman started laughing, Heath Ledger-style, when Tom-Peter was wailing on him during their first fight. Against the wall.

Totally reminded me of the TDK interrogation scene. Except this time, the hero was dealing with someone who could physically fight back.

Wish Dafoe got more screen time.

Yeah, that was pretty well done.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Which Peter learned as the movie went on.

Whether he did or not remains to be seen, tbh.

Yes, it's supposed to be his own version of the responsibility lesson, but truly learning it and making it work in the superhero world takes a lifetime --- 616 Peter is a good example of that, he still makes mistakes... or makes promises that he can't keep, for example the whole Slott Era "nobody dies" rule was revealed to be quite impossible in the long run, as Peter himself admitted. But I digress. Slott must be pissed, btw, lol.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Also, please don't presume I said or meant things when I didn't.

Then don't say stuff that can be easily interpreted in such way.

Your own words, example #1:

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Norman isn't stupid either. With Strange off the board, Peter was easier to manipulate.

Or you meant something else?

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For all we know, it is entirely possible that there were no manipulations on his part and that the Goblin persona resurfaced just when everything was about to be resolved. We don't know the exact moment, we can only guess (and the best guess would be Norman's face changing when Otto asks if he is ready to become his one true self again, that's when GG returns as the dominant persona, imo at least).

Keep in mind it's Tobey who invented the cure that actually worked. So - for all we know - the earlier cure might have not gotten sabotaged at all, it just wasn't good enough.

Norman had plenty of opportunities to make everything go to shit earlier. He could've damaged the Neural Inhibitor Chip, for example. Or Electro's power-drain thing.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, that was pretty well done.

👆

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And at 18 he magically is deemed responsible enough 😂

Dude, he was after a SHITLOAD of superhero experiences.

And all we're asking for here is just some common sense --- which shouldn't be too hard, considering he is supposed to be a f*cking genius.

You can say that any age. At 17 youre magically considered good enough to drive. Point is hes still a youth.

Your idea of common sense is subjective though. As ive said over and over he had the nuclear button. Norman seemed helpful. Sandman didnt seem much of a threat in terms of his intentions. And As they cured them one by one, they would be less and less of a threat. Plus he arrogantly figured he could handle it with his powers (spider sense).

The real recklessness was his moral naivety, which was to help bad/disturbed guys from another time and Universe who had their own Spider-Men and risking his own universe in the process.

In any case, as we keep saying over and over, youre trying to turn character flaws into plot errors. But those are two very different things.

Funny how nobody realized

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Osborn was wearing a full body battlesuit under his civilian clothes...

Smurph's thoughts on the film:

Originally posted by Smurph
Re: NWH

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I find it hard to review because it accomplishes something basically unprecedented. It both delivered a solid enough movie and somehow made the Tobey and Andrew runs retroactively better by delivering a little bit of closure for those characters which is above-and-beyond what we could have expected going in.

OTOH, the plot is filled with weird holes and a bunch of the dialogue and plotting could have been sharper. This movie needed editing.

I should watch NWH again but I would rank Homecoming above it. I kind of wish we had gotten to see either Mysterio or Vulture join the action of this movie. Willem Dafoe is excellent but it is a bit weird to have Tobeys nemesis kill Toms aunt.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
In any case, as we keep saying over and over, youre trying to turn character flaws into plot errors. But those are two very different things.

The whole idea of trying to cure a group of super-villains from different universes is dumb.

It's not something you invent on the fly.

Gonna be hilarious when Reed Richards appears in MCU - "oh yeah, I'm the most brilliant genius in the omniverse, but I can't cure my supervillains or my best friend. If only Peter Parker, who can never pay the rent in time and whose only job is taking selfies, were here to help me invent something..."

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Whether he did or not remains to be seen, tbh.

Yes, it's supposed to be his own version of the responsibility lesson, but truly learning it and making it work in the superhero world takes a lifetime --- 616 Peter is a good example of that, he still makes mistakes... or makes promises that he can't keep, for example the whole Slott Era "nobody dies" rule was revealed to be quite impossible in the long run, as Peter himself admitted. But I digress. Slott must be pissed, btw, lol.

Then don't say stuff that can be easily interpreted in such way.

Your own words, example #1:

Or you meant something else?

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For all we know, it is entirely possible that there were no manipulations on his part and that the Goblin persona resurfaced just when everything was about to be resolved. We don't know the exact moment, we can only guess (and the best guess would be Norman's face changing when Otto asks if he is ready to become his one true self again, that's when GG returns as the dominant persona, imo at least).

Keep in mind it's Tobey who invented the cure that actually worked. So - for all we know - the earlier cure might have not gotten sabotaged at all, it just wasn't good enough.

Norman had plenty of opportunities to make everything go to shit earlier. He could've damaged the Neural Inhibitor Chip, for example. Or Electro's power-drain thing.

👆

Interpreted by you. ****er.

My interpretation was that the Goblin came back earlier. Not when Peter had the flash. If yours was different, then okay.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
The whole idea of trying to cure a group of super-villains from different universes is dumb.

It's not something you invent on the fly.

Gonna be hilarious when Reed Richards appears in MCU - "oh yeah, I'm the most brilliant genius in the omniverse, but I can't cure my supervillains or my best friend. If only Peter Parker, who can never pay the rent in time and whose only job is taking selfies, were here to help me invent something..."

You call it dumb, but it worked.

There's no interpretation needed. GG says he was watching everything "from deep behind Osborn's eyes" or something to that effect. Meaning he was clearly picking his moment.

Originally posted by jaden_2.0
There's no interpretation needed. GG says he was watching everything "from deep behind Osborn's eyes" or something to that effect. Meaning he was clearly picking his moment.

Unlike Norman, Goblin doesn't have any memory problems. That much his true.

GG wasn't controlling his actions though, otherwise he wouldn't smash his own helmet, snitch on himself and actually help Peter.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Interpreted by you. ****er.

My interpretation was that the Goblin came back earlier. Not when Peter had the flash. If yours was different, then okay.

When, exactly?

The moment that makes most sense was

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Otto interacting with Norman, asking him if he is ready to be whole again, as I said. Seen clearly on Norman's face. Which happened before Spider-Sense, so we're on same page... unless you want to believe it happened even earlier - hence why I'm asking, when? And what did he benefit from it?

GG wasn't a schemer in this film. He was all about spontaneous action (which is exactly what makes him so dangerous).

His only master plan involved including Wolverine-claws in his gauntlets 😂

Originally posted by -Pr-
You call it dumb, but it worked.

The script could've been written by carver.

People would still love the movie, because of the cast and their performance. Never underestimate the power of our nostalgia.