World Forger vs. Molecule Man

Originally posted by cdtm

Creating universes is a sign of overall power.

But depth of power is another issue.

Originally posted by cdtm

That, and no one's ever asked LT, Eternity,

or even Lucifer Morningstar about their "combat feats" before.

(For the latter, tanking Michael's power and crafting a multiverse from it was good enough.)

Although it's not LT's function to create realities,
Yet, that aside, there's one showing where he simultaneously fashioned
the entirety of the Marvel embodiment and another equal totality.

LT also was portrayed as the embodiment of infinite universeS.

-------------------------------------------------

Eternity creates entire universeS all day, every day.

Originally posted by MrMind

beyonder and molecule man were retconned,

meaning ...they were never that powerful to begin with

they contributed in a trans-Multiversal feat. (omniversal)

So incredible was their uber performance,
that the TVA (omniversal reality mechanics)
were stacked to their max with the warped universeS that needed fixing.

Originally posted by MrMind

off topic
there's a reason DC has over 13 1-A beings on vsbattles
and marvel only has 1

DC has 2 tieir-0
Marvel only has 1

or every polls in 2019 across the internet

except here,

have lucifer and michael over beyonder and molecule man

This is KMC, where the comic book debating gods reside.

Get that nonsense out of here dogs.

Originally posted by cdtm

marvel can't compare to dc in cosmic/abstract level

Originally posted by staxamillion

would mm be able to affect the forge/hammer in anyway like erase from existence?

Yes, I know what you're going to say:

You: But Owen possess the power of the race of BeyonderS.

Me: So?

You: But only 3 BeyonderS defeated and killed the combined power of infinite universeS fighting back,
and Owen has the power of those 3, + the entire race.

Me: This battle is about creating universes, not about shitstomping universes.

You: 🤨 ... I guess, still don't get it.

Me: Trust me, I understand.

What has OWEN done with that power though? Doesn't matter what the Beyonders did with it, because Owen isn't the Beyonders, and we don't share feats for obvious reasons.

Since you say creating universes isn't a sign of a character's overall power, what combat feats does this version of OWEN have that put him above World Forger? The only combat showing I can even think of is when he was killed by Griever, but like Galan said- Griever was actually worried about Franklin and didn't dare fight him directly.

In other words- Franklin=universal>Griever>current Owen. So that one definitely doesn't help your case.

Originally posted by LordGod
What has OWEN done with that power though? Doesn't matter what the Beyonders did with it, because Owen isn't the Beyonders, and we don't share feats for obvious reasons.

Since you say creating universes isn't a sign of a character's overall power, what combat feats does this version of OWEN have that put him above World Forger? The only combat showing I can even think of is when he was killed by Griever, but like Galan said- Griever was actually worried about Franklin and didn't dare fight him directly.

In other words- Franklin=universal>Griever>current Owen. So that one definitely doesn't help your case.

combat feats only start mattering when it's conveinent for the marvel camp, obv.

most other rational people can look at this battle and see the massive discrepency in power.

-mm created limited multiverse with franklins help.
-wf created two infinite multiverses and hypertime by himself.

it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out who has the greater display of personal power lmao.

Originally posted by Galan007
Without needlessly going off-topic, how is this question even relevant to the battle at hand?

Current Owen and World Forger are in this thread... and it took the power of current Owen+Franklin to manifest full-scale, individual universes. As mentioned, universal creation is something that WF can do all by himself with a single swing of his hammer, while significantly weakened.

Like I said above: how can anyone seriously argue that their powers are even remotely comparable? As of now, current Owen has yet to live up to the lip-service Ewing gave him in that one issue. That's a fact.

Based on their origins, I'm quite sure they are viewed as equals despite only one being the one who hammers out universes routinely. Same for Antimonitor. It's an example of how one thing is not the be all/ end all.

As the scan shows, Owen provides the power and Franklin provides the imagination. Owen actually show destructive power by there being fear that he could wipe Galactus from existence with a thought. What indication is given that WF can do that?

Originally posted by Diesldude
with the power of the beyonders he should be able to do everything they were able to do. Don't know if he has the experience or the knowledge they did to use that power but to full capacity but he should be able to do everything they did if he uses that power correctly.

As an example- Nebula w. IG has the same power that Thanos w. IG had. That doesn't mean Nebula automatically gets all of Thanos's IG feats, though, because every character is not created equal, and Nebula was a shit IG user while Thanos was not. Their ability to use that power is going to be immensely different.

The same principal applies to LOADS of other areas. Feat sharing just doesn't work. Therefore we have to stick with OWEN'S feats here.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Based on their origins, I'm quite sure they are viewed as equals despite only one being the one who hammers out universes routinely. Same for Antimonitor. It's an example of how one thing is not the be all/ end all.

As the scan shows, Owen provides the power and Franklin provides the imagination. Owen actually show destructive power by there being fear that he could wipe Galactus from existence with a thought. What indication is given that WF can do that?

Owen was killed by Griever. Griever feared Franklin's universal power. So if Owen could have killed Lifebringer, it means he (Lifebringer) was far below universal.

What feats does OWEN have to suggest that he can kill a multiversal+++ being like WF? How far are you people willing to take this silly logic?

Originally posted by LordGod
I just told Mr Master this-

Owen was killed by Griever. Griever feared Franklin's universal power. So if Owen could have killed Lifebringer, it means he (Lifebringer) was far below universal.

What feats does OWEN have to suggest that he can kill a multiversal+++ being like WF? How far are you people willing to take this silly logic?

What are you talking about? That wasn't the real Owen, but an aspect. There's infinite Owen existing across the entire multiverse

That scan is from before Owen absorbed the power of the Beyonders, genius. There is currently only ONE Owen that we know of- and that is the Owen who teamed up with Franklin to remake the multiverse. This is the SAME Owen who Lifebringer talked to, and the SAME Owen who was killed by Griever.

^^ Nah. I shall return with the proof.

Originally posted by Deisldude

with the power of the beyonders he should be able to do everything they were able to do.

he should be able to do everything they did if he uses that power correctly.

Originally posted by LordGod

As an example- Nebula w. IG has the same power that Thanos w. IG had.

That doesn't mean Nebula automatically gets all of Thanos's IG feats, though,
because every character is not created equal,
and Nebula was a shit IG user while Thanos was not.

Nebula curbstomped the cosmic hierarchy (minus Eternity) in one move,
and she also reverted Thanos' actions in one move likewise.

The ONLY thing she lacked that Thanos had, was full cosmic awareness.

Why? Absolutely nothing to do with "different" characters.

Nebula was literally a decaying fleshless living corpse right before acquiring the IG.
Her broken mind gave her the limitation I just highlighted.

Literally stated On Panel.

Originally posted by LordGod

Therefore we have to stick with OWEN'S feats here.

3 BeyonderS stomped/killed the combined power of infinite universeS.

Owen not only has the power of those 3, but the entire race as well.

--------------------------------------------------------

As for Owen, he keeps the previous omniverse around for lulz in his ex nihilo created reality.

facepalm

3 Beyonders kill MULTIVERSAL LT and all of the hierarchy, yet Owen w. the power of ALL the Beyonders is killed by a being who feared Franklin's UNIVERSAL power.

Yet I'm to believe all of the Beyonders' feats cross-over to Owen? Do you guys even listen to yourselves?

Originally posted by LordGod
That scan is from before Owen absorbed the power of the Beyonders, genius. There is currently only ONE Owen that we know of- and that is the Owen who teamed up with Franklin to remake the multiverse. This is the SAME Owen who Lifebringer talked to, and the SAME Owen who was killed by Griever.

Show me where it was stated there's only 1 Owen now. Nothing ever retconned that scan

Originally posted by LordGod
I just told Mr Master this-

Owen was killed by Griever. Griever feared Franklin's universal power. So if Owen could have killed Lifebringer, it means he (Lifebringer) was far below universal.

What feats does OWEN have to suggest that he can kill a multiversal+++ being like WF? How far are you people willing to take this silly logic?

Lifebringer Galan stomped Order and Chaos

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Show me where it was stated there's only 1 Owen now. Nothing ever retconned that scan

The previous multiverse was destroyed. One Owen remains and acts as receptacle for all the Beyonders power. Same Owen remains afterward and helps Franklin remake the multiverse.

This was one of the most fundamental plot points of the entire story lol.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Lifebringer Galan stomped Order and Chaos

What's your point?

Originally posted by LordGod
Read the arc.

The previous multiverse was destroyed. One Owen remains and acts as receptacle for all the Beyonders power. Same Owen remains afterward and helps Franklin remake the multiverse.

This was one of the most fundamental plot points of the entire story lol.

At a time when the current Marvel cosmos was still brand new and hadn't yet solidified. It was in a state of complete disarray, and the proper hierarchy was in flux. That's how Order and Chaos killed LT a few issues later for example.

What's your point?

...What?

The fight with Chaos and Order happened WAY BEFORE the logos saga

Same unstable new cosmos, genius.

That was literally credited as -the- reason why Order and Chaos were able to kill LT and take over the hierarchy. So the same principal logically applies to Lifebringer beating Order and Chaos prior to that. You really need to read the issues and take a moment to let everything soak in.

Originally posted by LordGod
Feat sharing like that is faulty.

As an example- Nebula w. IG has the same power that Thanos w. IG had. That doesn't mean Nebula automatically gets all of Thanos's IG feats, though, because every character is not created equal, and Nebula was a shit IG user while Thanos was not. Their ability to use that power is going to be immensely different.

The same principal applies to LOADS of other areas. Feat sharing just doesn't work. Therefore we have to stick with OWEN'S feats here.

They have more experience and knowledge.

It’s just that MM does have the power of the beyonders and it’s formidable. It’s not a easy win for WF they both have multiversal power.

The question is, did MM run out or use up all the power? We know the WF has created infinite universes many times over and a more mature multiverse yet he hasn’t even had a drop in loss of power.

Originally posted by LordGod
Same unstable new cosmos, genius.

That was literally credited as -the- reason why Order and Chaos were able to kill LT and take over the hierarchy. So the same principal logically applies to Lifebringer beating Order and Chaos prior to that. You really need to read the issues and take a moment to let everything soak in.

when I get home I'll link you the comic issues to read.

So I just read the arc, and, the "Griever" is being grossly underestimated here.