Captain Marvel vs Hela

Originally posted by FrothByte
Nowhere did I claim that Thor was weaker because he was fat. I said fat Thor was less formidable (and yes, weaker) because he was [b]out of shape.
In none of your articles were you able to prove that a person who's out of shape is just as strong as they would be in their peak physical condition.

As for dropping the Thor argument, I'm willing to drop that if you're willing to admit that the Thor Thanos defeated is a far less formidable fighter than the Thor that Hela fought. [/B]

Unless there is a valid reason, in terms of feats, to believe that Fat Thor is less strong than Regular Thor, there is no reason to believe that there is a difference in strength between them.

The fact is that I never claimed that Fat Thor was different in strength to Normal Thor, you did. Your entire case was based on a) Fat Thor being fat and b) Regular Thor being in "peak condition" due to visuals (Thor being all buffy).

I've proved the following:
1. That body fat has little to no correlation with body strength, ergo nullifying your first claim.

2. "Peak condition" is a way too ample term, and based on that alone, you can't prove that it translate into physical strength. A person can run 20miles a day, and be considered to have peak condition, yet he won't lift a 50kg weight! A person can lift a 50kg weight and be considered in peak condition, yet he won't swim 100m without felling tired!

What's worse, peak condition can't be measured by physical appearance alone! As I've already proven that muscle size doesn't translate into pure strength. So, Thor seeming all muscular in his regular form, doesn't mean he is in peak strength.

So, again, if you want to assert that Thor had a strength change, you need to back that up.

I don't need to back that one Thor is as strong as the other, as there is no reason to believe that.

In other aspects, I'm willing to say that Thor wasn't in other aspects as good as his previous version. In terms of strength, no.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

The fact is that I never claimed that Fat Thor was different in strength to Normal Thor, you did. Your entire case was based on a) Fat Thor being fat and b) Regular Thor being in "peak condition" due to visuals (Thor being all buffy).

There's really no point in continuing this conversation when you insist on lying and making stuff up. Nowhere did I base Thor being out of shape based on him being fat or his "visuals". That's what you have been doing.

What I've been basing it on is the fact that he has been doing nothing for 5 years except play computer games and get drunk. Because are you really telling me that a person who does nothing for 5 years except play computer games and get drunk is just as strong as that same person who spends 5 years training and fighting?

Now, are you able to actually proceed with an honest debate or are you going to continue to lie and make stuff up?

Originally posted by FrothByte
There's really no point in continuing this conversation when you insist on lying and making stuff up. Nowhere did I base Thor being out of shape based on him being fat or his "visuals". That's what you have been doing.

What I've been basing it on is the fact that he has been doing nothing for 5 years except play computer games and get drunk. Because are you really telling me that a person who does nothing for 5 years except play computer games and get drunk is just as strong as that same person who spends 5 years training and fighting?

Now, are you able to actually proceed with an honest debate or are you going to continue to lie and make stuff up?

This is useless, you are just changing goalposts.

Here, swallow the elephant in your room:

If Thanos outstrengthen the Hulk, he will outstrengthen ANY version of Thor.

Just get over it, your bias won't change movies!

Carol stood toe to toe with Thanos, who previously demolished the Hulk with little effort.

Carol will represent a bigger threat to an outside Asgard than Reg.Thor.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
This is useless, you are just changing goalposts.

Here, swallow the elephant in your room:

If Thanos outstrengthen the Hulk, he will outstrengthen ANY version of Thor.

Just get over it, your bias won't change movies!

Carol stood toe to toe with Thanos, who previously demolished the Hulk with little effort.

Carol will represent a bigger threat to an outside Asgard than Reg.Thor.

No dude, you're just strawmanning. I never claimed Thor was stronger than Thanos. Never even claimed Thor was stronger than Hulk. See, all those points are your strawmen. Heck, you can't even bring yourself to admit that doing nothing but drinking and playing computer games for 5 years will make you weaker than if you spent that 5 years physically training. How pathetic is that?

Anyway, when Thanos fought Carol, she was at full power, and it only took the PS to knock her out. The one time Thanos fought Thor at full power, Thanos had the full IG and he still almost died.

All I'm doing here is matching like for like. If you want to use Thor as a measuring stick between Carol and Hela, then you need to use the version of Thor that Hela fought and acknowledge that that version was far more dangerous than the Thor that Thanos beat to a bloody mess.

IMO breaking Mjolni with strength (as it was decided here in a lengthy debate with a moderator ruling) goes beyond anything done with strength or energy attacks by CM. And Hela has plenty of fighting skill and speed. (on a side note I think she used some magic or personal connection to Mjolnir by being a former owner or daughter of Odin of something to fight enchantments in Odin's absense or something like that in additon to strength, but I totally respect the forum ruling).

Originally posted by FrothByte
No dude, you're just strawmanning. I never claimed Thor was stronger than Thanos. Never even claimed Thor was stronger than Hulk. See, all those points are your strawmen. Heck, you can't even bring yourself to admit that doing nothing but drinking and playing computer games for 5 years will make you weaker than if you spent that 5 years physically training. How pathetic is that?

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's about being out of shape. Someone who's out of shape is obviously not going to be as strong

You made the claim that Fat Thor is weaker than Reg. Thor without any form of basis, besides your discriminatory fallacious logic!

Now you are just switching goalposts, as you bases such logic on appearances and not on things like the type of training and factors akin to visuals.

Okay, am done with this trolling scheme.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Anyway, when Thanos fought Carol, she was at full power, and it only took the PS to knock her out. The one time Thanos fought Thor at full power, Thanos had the full IG and he still almost died.

All I'm doing here is matching like for like. If you want to use Thor as a measuring stick between Carol and Hela, then you need to use the version of Thor that Hela fought and acknowledge that that version was far more dangerous than the Thor that Thanos beat to a bloody mess.

Lol! Again with this! Several in this forum have already pointed, including the Russo brothers, that Thor suprised Thanos!

And Hela fought Pre-Ragnarok Thor, not IW Thor. Consider your fallacy denied!.

Thanos defeated the Hulk with 0 effort! Something pre-Ragnarok Thor would only dream about!

Thanos=Carol>>>>>>>>>Hulk or Pre-Ragnarok Thor.

Consider that as a checkmate!.

I don't know why you are so stubborn! By this point it's clear that Carol outmatches Thor! Even Feige has confirmed this! Carol is the strongest superhero so far, and that's the end of it!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lol! Again with this! Several in this forum have already pointed, including the Russo brothers, that Thor suprised Thanos!

And Hela fought Pre-Ragnarok Thor, not IW Thor. [B]Consider your fallacy denied!.

Thanos defeated the Hulk with 0 effort! Something pre-Ragnarok Thor would only dream about!

Thanos=Carol>>>>>>>>>Hulk or Pre-Ragnarok Thor.

Consider that as a checkmate!.

I don't know why you are so stubborn! By this point it's clear that Carol outmatches Thor! Even Feige has confirmed this! Carol is the strongest superhero so far, and that's the end of it! [/B]

You can keep beating around the bush, still doesn't change the fact that Thanos never beat up Thor in his prime... like Hela did.

Hulk also never fought a Thor that was using his full powerset, pre-ragnarok or otherwise.

Bottom line is, Carol being able to keep up with Thanos is no proof that she can take on Hela, not when Hela has feats of easily taking on both prime Thor and Valkyrie at the same time. Thor who's using his full powerset.

Also, you'll now be forever known in this forum as the guy who thinks drinking and playing computer games can make you just as strong as exercising.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You can keep beating around the bush, still doesn't change the fact that Thanos never beat up Thor in his prime... like Hela did.

Hulk also never fought a Thor that was using his full powerset, pre-ragnarok or otherwise.

Bottom line is, Carol being able to keep up with Thanos is no proof that she can take on Hela, not when Hela has feats of easily taking on both prime Thor and Valkyrie at the same time. Thor who's using his full powerset.

Also, you'll now be forever known in this forum as the guy who thinks drinking and playing computer games can make you just as strong as exercising.

It's called an apple to apple comparison. Hulk has fought both Thor in his "prime" and Thanos, and guess what? The last one demolished him, while the first one never did!

The only one going arround the bushes here is you, you've been checkmate! Just stop resisting!

What!? And Hela outside Asgard fought Thor in his full powerset? You are desperate now!

Read the thread's guidelines, this is Hela outside Asgard!

Under the eyes of a discrimination, i'd rather be a Jewish than belong to your group of Nazi!

Not an apples-to-apples comparison, actually. Close by still different fruit. More like apples-to-pears.

-Hulk fought Thor when he had weapons and armor and Thor didn't have Mjolnir and hadn't fully come into his powers, yet Thor was clearly winning that fight, why the Grand Master stopped it. He didn't want Hulk/his champion to lose

-Thanos kicked the shit out of weaponless and armourless Hulk

-We don't know exactly how Thor lost to Thanos on the ship, as Thor was already beaten by the time the film starts and Thanos had both his Black Order and an army with him.

-Then a prime Thor with Stormbreaker came within a few inches of killing Thanos with a complete Infinity Gauntlet

-For their last encounter, Thor was fat, out of shape and out of practice, but he did have backup, two weapons and Thanos had no gems

Originally posted by Robtard
Not an apples-to-apples comparison, actually. Close by still different fruit. More like apples-to-pears.

-Hulk fought Thor when he had weapons and armor and Thor didn't have Mjolnir and hadn't fully come into his powers, yet Thor was clearly winning that fight, why the Grand Master stopped it. He didn't want Hulk/his champion to lose

-Thanos kicked the shit out of weaponless and armourless Hulk

-We don't know exactly how Thor lost to Thanos on the ship, as Thor was already beaten by the time the film starts and Thanos had both his Black Order and an army with him.

-Then a prime Thor with Stormbreaker came within a few inches of killing Thanos with a complete Infinity Gauntlet

-For their last encounter, Thor was fat, out of shape and out of practice, but he did have backup, two weapons and Thanos had no gems

Hulk can be used as a parameter, that's perfectly valid

- Eh, no, Hulk was winning the battle until Thor tuned into his powers. That's Ragnarok Thor. Hela outside Asgard dealt with Pre-Ragnarok Thor.

- You forget the Helicarrier scene back at AV.1? Thor was being tied by an unarmored and weaponless Hulk!

- IW Thor is irrelevant in all measures.

Originally posted by Robtard

-We don't know exactly how Thor lost to Thanos on the ship, as Thor was already beaten by the time the film starts and Thanos had both his Black Order and an army with him.

When Hulk first started fighting Thanos on the ship, Ebony Maw stops Cull from interfering as he said, "Let him have his fun."

This implies that Thanos did not fight Thor one on one, mano-y-mano like he did Hulk as he has not yet "had his fun".

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Hulk can be used as a parameter, that's perfectly valid

- Eh, no, Hulk was winning the battle until Thor tuned into his powers. That's Ragnarok Thor. Hela outside Asgard dealt with Pre-Ragnarok Thor.

- You forget the Helicarrier scene back at AV.1? Thor was being tied by an unarmored and weaponless Hulk!

- IW Thor is irrelevant in all measures.

-'God of Thunder' Thor didn't fully come into power until he fought Hela on Asgard. This was a key point of the film, how did you miss this?

-Thor was holding back** on the helicarrier,, cos if he went balls-out with Mjolnir against Hulk, he would have destroyed the ship and killed people. **This fight shouldn't be used here for that reason

-IW Thor isn't irrelevant, as it's still Thor when comparing and contrasting the fights

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
It's called an apple to apple comparison. Hulk has fought both Thor in his "prime" and Thanos, and guess what? The last one demolished him, while the first one never did!

The only one going arround the bushes here is you, you've been checkmate! Just stop resisting!

What!? And Hela outside Asgard fought Thor in his full powerset? You are desperate now!

Read the thread's guidelines, this is Hela outside Asgard!

[B]Under the eyes of a discrimination, i'd rather be a Jewish than belong to your group of Nazi! [/B]

Don't think you know what an "apples-to-apples" comparison means. Hulk never fought Thor where Thor was fully utilizing his full thunder/lightning powers against him. The brief moment that Thor actually used lightning on Hulk, Hulk got completely thrashed.

This is true for their fight on the Hellicarrier as well. Thor also only ever hit Hulk once with Mjolnir, and that hit left him pretty groggy.

Hela was beating up a Thor who was going all out with his powers together with Valkyrie. She also easily crushed Mjolnir.

So what you're really comparing is an apple to an apple pie.

Originally posted by FrothByte
When Hulk first started fighting Thanos on the ship, Ebony Maw stops Cull from interfering as he said, "Let him have his fun."

This implies that Thanos did not fight Thor one on one, mano-y-mano like he did Hulk as he has not yet "had his fun".

That's a very plausible scenario. I take it that the Black Order and army are the ones who took out the ship's crew and Thanos only boarded after the ship had been pacified. But we don't know, maybe Thanos helped.

Originally posted by FrothByte

So what you're really comparing is an apple to an apple pie.

^ I like this better than my pear example

Originally posted by Robtard
Sorry, what I said were the facts.

-'God of Thunder' Thor didn't fully come into power until he fought Hela on Asgard. This was a key point of the film, how did you miss this?

-Thor was holding back** on the helicarrier,, cos if he went balls-out with Mjolnir against Hulk, he would have destroyed the ship and killed people. **This fight shouldn't be used here for that reason

-IW Thor isn't irrelevant, as it's still Thor when comparing and contrasting the fights

- He permanently tuned into "God of Thunder" mode in Asgard. And again, Hela was on Asgard! He did turned into "God of Thunder" Thor in Saakar, until he was stopped by the Grandmaster.

How could you miss this?

- Did you read Thor's mind or something? Thor never showed signs of holding back! That's inventing stuff right there!

Besides, I'm using Hulk to compare Thor's raw strength mainly.

- Hela didn't fought a IW Thor, ergo he is invalid for comparison, just as "God of Thunder" Thor is.

Originally posted by FrothByte
When Hulk first started fighting Thanos on the ship, Ebony Maw stops Cull from interfering as he said, "Let him have his fun."

This implies that Thanos did not fight Thor one on one, mano-y-mano like he did Hulk as he has not yet "had his fun".

"Let him have his fun" in no way means Thanos hadn't fight previously! WOW!!! You are just desperate now and twisting On Screen feats!

Incredible!

Originally posted by FrothByte
Don't think you know what an "apples-to-apples" comparison means. Hulk never fought Thor where Thor was fully utilizing his full thunder/lightning powers against him. The brief moment that Thor actually used lightning on Hulk, Hulk got completely thrashed.

This is true for their fight on the Hellicarrier as well. Thor also only ever hit Hulk once with Mjolnir, and that hit left him pretty groggy.

Hela was beating up a Thor who was going all out with his powers together with Valkyrie. She also easily crushed Mjolnir.

So what you're really comparing is an apple to an apple pie.

Moving goalposts!!

God Mode Thor is irrelevant here, as Hela never fought him outside Asgard!
Stop strawmanning!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
- He permanently tuned into "God of Thunder" mode in Asgard. And again, Hela was on Asgard! He did turned into "God of Thunder" Thor in Saakar, until he was stopped by the Grandmaster.

How could you miss this?

- Did you read Thor's mind or something? Thor never showed signs of holding back! That's inventing stuff right there!

Besides, I'm using Hulk to compare Thor's raw strength mainly.

- Hela didn't fought a IW Thor, ergo he is invalid for comparison, just as "God of Thunder" Thor is.

Literally what I explained to you in the first half of my comment and now you're repeating what I said and pretending I didn't say it, Josh and his shit tactics. Anyhow, Thor wasn't in full on God Mode when he fought Hulk in the arena, as you initially implied. I was correct; you were incorrect

I don't have to read Thor's mind, it's a movie so it was visually shown to us and Thor wasn't using the full capabilities his his/Mjolnir's powers. Pay attention. eg Thor didn't use his lightning on Hulk. It was visually shown to us. Pay attention

Your Red Herring is noted and denied. Topic: We don't ignore IW Thor when comparing and contrasting here.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
"Let him have his fun" in no way means Thanos hadn't fight previously! WOW!!! You are just desperate now and twisting On Screen feats!

Incredible!

When did I say Thanos didn't fight previously? I said it implied Thanos did not fight Thor in a fair, one on one fight like he did with Hulk. Because if he already did, then that comment from Ebony Maw wouldn't make much sense.