Captain Marvel vs Hela

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay, first thing, I just clearly proved that a person's strength isn't related to it's physical condition (being fat or being fit).

I think I have a better grasp at your argument now, so, let me see if I get you straight?

You are saying that Normal Thor is stronger because, based on visuals, he has bigger muscles and is all buffy?

Stop playing dumb, you know that wasn't what I said. My stance was that someone in their peak physical condition will be a more formidable fighter than when they are out of shape.

I'm still waiting for you to prove that a person is stronger when they are out of shape than when they are in peak condition.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Stop playing dumb, you know that wasn't what I said. My stance was that someone in their peak physical condition will be a more formidable fighter than when they are out of shape.

I'm still waiting for you to prove that a person is stronger when they are out of shape than when they are in peak condition.

Formidable fighter is it now? We were talking about mere raw physical strength, not fighting skills.

Peak condition!? Since when does peak condition turns to be peak strength? The only one playing dumb here is you, or you are trully ignorant of the topic you are touching.

First of all, what you call "peak condition" is a very ample term and doesn't literaly translates into massive strength!

For instance, bodybuilders would seem to be the iteration of what you call "peak condition" (All muscular and fit, just like Chris Hemsworth, just a way more muscular), and yet, they aren't the strongest in the market!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11900273/Wimps-are-stronger-than-bodybuilders-study-finds.html

Thor being all muscular doesn't mean he is stronger than his fatter version! That's a fallacy and mere out discrimination! What's worse, you have presented 0 evidence of such a bold claim

Oh, and should I remind you that you still have the Hulk Elephant in the room? You haven't proved that there is a feat that shows Fat Thor being weaker. Stop playing dumb and prove your arguments, otherwise, your discriminatory opinion is respected!

Fighting skills is of little concern here, as Carol does have good fighting skills.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Formidable fighter is it now? We were talking about mere raw physical strength, not fighting skills.

Peak condition!? Since when does peak condition turns to be peak strength? [B]The only one playing dumb here is you, or you are trully ignorant of the topic you are touching.

First of all, what you call "peak condition" is a very ample term and doesn't literaly translates into massive strength!

For instance, bodybuilders would seem to be the iteration of what you call "peak condition" (All muscular and fit, just like Chris Hemsworth, just a way more muscular), and yet, they aren't the strongest in the market!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11900273/Wimps-are-stronger-than-bodybuilders-study-finds.html

Thor being all muscular doesn't mean he is stronger than his fatter version! That's a fallacy and mere out discrimination! What's worse, you have presented 0 evidence of such a bold claim

Fighting skills is of little concern here, as Carol does have good fighting skills. [/B]

I never limited my discussion to pure strength alone. You were the only one claiming that. My stance was always from a fighting perspective, in fact the exact term I used earlier in our conversation was "peak fighting condition".

And again, you failed to provide proof that a person is stronger when they're out of shape than when they're in shape. You keep focusing on a person's looks (showing how shallow you are) instead of focusing on their physical condition, which is what I've been saying all along.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I never limited my discussion to pure strength alone. You were the only one claiming that. My stance was always from a fighting perspective, in fact the exact term I used earlier in our conversation was "peak fighting condition".

And again, you failed to provide proof that a person is stronger when they're out of shape than when they're in shape. You keep focusing on a person's looks (showing how shallow you are) instead of focusing on their physical condition, which is what I've been saying all along.

Interesting, and how is fighting skills relevant to this conversation? All i've been trying to point is that Carol's strength is going to be an issue for an off-Asgard Hela.

I don't need to prove that Thanos is amongst, if not, the best fighter in the MCU. The guy defeated Cap, with Mjolnir and Shield!

Also, Carol's fighting skills are decent for this match!

Except, I never said that F.Thor was stronger than normal Thor!

In fact, I've been pointing out that feats don't prove that there is a strength difference between Fat Thor and Regular Thor.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Interesting, and how is fighting skills relevant to this conversation? All i've been trying to point is that Carol's strength is going to be an issue for an off-Asgard Hela.

I don't need to prove that Thanos is amongst, if not, the best fighter in the MCU. The guy defeated Cap, with Mjolnir and Shield!

Also, Carol's fighting skills are decent for this match!

Except, I never said that F.Thor was stronger than normal Thor!

In fact, I've been pointing out that feats don't prove that there is a strength difference between Fat Thor and Regular Thor.

Josh, there's no use replying to you if you don't read my posts. I never said fighting skills.

Read my posts, understand it, reply back with something relevant, then we can continue this conversation.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
In terms of stamina, granted. In terms of training, perhaps. In terms of "I will push an object with less strength", prove it.

Again Josh, give me an example of a boxer (or MMA fighter or whatever fighter) who had not fought in 5 years, gained weight (fat), and was still at his peak in terms of performance.

When Mike Tyson went prison for a few years, he was still in decent physical shape (looks wise), but was never heavy weight champion of the world ever again.

Waiting for your reverse example now. Kindly give one without trolling.

Fat Thor and Worthy Cap are the same iteration of their characters.

They aren’t tiers above their counterparts as the is zero evidence to insinuate as such.

Didn't they say Fat Thor couldn't use the IG cause of the state he was in or something? Saw that as them saying he wasn't as strong as he was before

Originally posted by steverules_2
Didn't they say Fat Thor couldn't use the IG cause of the state he was in or something? Saw that as them saying he wasn't as strong as he was before

Yeah but people claim that as soon as he saw Thanos again he was mentally ready. They get that from a quote from the Russos.

But to me that was like 10minutes later so I seriously doubt his mental state fixed itself 100% in 10minutes after years of being in that state.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Josh, there's no use replying to you if you don't read my posts. I never said fighting skills.

Read my posts, understand it, reply back with something relevant, then we can continue this conversation.

You clearly used the word "formidable fighter" and said that you weren't refering to strength alone. So, if it's not strength and it's not fighting skills, what is it?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Again Josh, give me an example of a boxer (or MMA fighter or whatever fighter) who had not fought in 5 years, gained weight (fat), and was still at his peak in terms of performance.

When Mike Tyson went prison for a few years, he was still in decent physical shape (looks wise), but was never heavy weight champion of the world ever again.

Waiting for your reverse example now. Kindly give one without trolling.

I'm not talking about performance, I'm talking about pure raw strength.

The question is whether Carol is strong enough to contest Hela. The answer is yes, as Thanos was outstrengthening Fat Thor. And as I've already proved, being fat or being in peak condition doesn't determine body strength.

Again, why should we discuss Fat Thor not longer being a formidable fighter? When Thanos clearly is.

Originally posted by steverules_2
Didn't they say Fat Thor couldn't use the IG cause of the state he was in or something? Saw that as them saying he wasn't as strong as he was before

They did. But does it mean they were right? Or did they just took a decision without much knowledge due to timing?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You clearly used the word "formidable fighter" and said that you weren't refering to strength alone. So, if it's not strength and it's not fighting skills, what is it?

Do you really think that all it takes to make a formidable fighter is only strength and fighting skill?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I'm not talking about performance, I'm talking about pure raw strength.

The question is whether Carol is strong enough to contest Hela. The answer is yes, as Thanos was outstrengthening Fat Thor. And as I've already proved, being fat or being in peak condition doesn't determine body strength.

Again, why should we discuss Fat Thor not longer being a formidable fighter? When Thanos clearly is.

Actually, you never proved that being in peak physical condition has no bearing on strength.

And no, it's not only about strength. This discussion came up because you said Thanos was toying with Thor whereas he couldn't with Carol. Strength is not the only factor to consider in that statement.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Do you really think that all it takes to make a formidable fighter is only strength and fighting skill?

I don't see how anything else concerns this particular debate. We were trying to prove that Carol's strength would be an issue for Hela.

All other aspects of "a formidable fighter" don't require the Thor comparison.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Actually, you never proved that being in peak physical condition has no bearing on strength.

And no, it's not only about strength. This discussion came up because you said Thanos was toying with Thor whereas he couldn't with Carol. Strength is not the only factor to consider in that statement.

I don't need to prove a negative, as peak condition is a term that is way to ample and doesn't literally translates into pure strength.

I was refering to toying more in a strengthwise direction. As Thor was being outpowered by Thanos.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I don't see how anything else concerns this particular debate. We were trying to prove that Carol's strength would be an issue for Hela.

All other aspects of "a formidable fighter" don't require the Thor comparison.

This entire thread is about a fight, not a strength competition. Your example of Thanos toying with Thor was in regards to them being in a fight, not a strength competition. Also interesting how you dodged my question, so I ask again: what makes a person a formidable fighter?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I don't need to prove a negative, as peak condition is a term that is way to ample and doesn't literally translates into pure strength.

I was refering to toying more in a strengthwise direction. As Thor was being outpowered by Thanos.

Not asking you to prove a negative. You claimed that an out of shape person can be just as strong if not moreso than that same person when they're in peak physical condition. So prove it. So far all you've done is link articles that have nothing to do with what you're claiming.

Originally posted by FrothByte
This entire thread is about a fight, not a strength competition. Your example of Thanos toying with Thor was in regards to them being in a fight, not a strength competition. Also interesting how you dodged my question, so I ask again: what makes a person a formidable fighter?

Okay, granted. Let's abandon the Thor debate now, as I've already proved that Carol does possess the strength to go against Hela.

All other aspects of Carol being a formidable fighter can be found in different feats.

1. Fighting skills: We've seen Carol facing multiple opponents in H2H and killing them. We know she was well trained by a Kree commander.

Sure, she might not be the best H2H fighter in the MCU, but she isn't a dummy either.

2. Stamina: Carol likely has the best stamina in the entire MCU. She flying intergalactic distances with little issue means getting tired isn't a concern for her, despite wasting massive amounts of energy in the form of LS.

3. Durability: This is the most obvious one, and shouldn't even be touched.

So, again, Hela outside Asgard won't have it nicely.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Not asking you to prove a negative. You claimed that an out of shape person can be just as strong if not moreso than that same person when they're in peak physical condition. So prove it. So far all you've done is link articles that have nothing to do with what you're claiming.

No, you are the one claiming that Thor was weaker, because he was fat, despite the several articles which I posted that claim that being fat and that being muscular has no corelation with strength.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay, granted. Let's abandon the Thor debate now, as I've already proved that Carol does possess the strength to go against Hela.

All other aspects of Carol being a formidable fighter can be found in different feats.

1. Fighting skills: We've seen Carol facing multiple opponents in H2H and killing them. We know she was well trained by a Kree commander.

Sure, she might not be the best H2H fighter in the MCU, but she isn't a dummy either.

2. Stamina: Carol likely has the best stamina in the entire MCU. She flying intergalactic distances with little issue means getting tired isn't a concern for her, despite wasting massive amounts of energy in the form of LS.

3. Durability: This is the most obvious one, and shouldn't even be touched.

So, again, Hela outside Asgard won't have it nicely.

No, you are the one claiming that Thor was weaker, because he was fat, despite the several articles which I posted that claim that being fat and that being muscular has no corelation with strength.

Nowhere did I claim that Thor was weaker because he was fat. I said fat Thor was less formidable (and yes, weaker) because he was out of shape.
In none of your articles were you able to prove that a person who's out of shape is just as strong as they would be in their peak physical condition.

As for dropping the Thor argument, I'm willing to drop that if you're willing to admit that the Thor Thanos defeated is a far less formidable fighter than the Thor that Hela fought.