Originally posted by Robtard
I think you meant "killed" in self defense, but yes.They will use your typo to ignore the meat of your comment.
Yup, I noticed.
Anything Surt can do to avoid coming to terms with his obvious bias. Give him an inch and he'll take a mile. Okay, fixed, now will you confront your hypocrisy?
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yeah, I like how in Surt's equalized morality world there's no difference between a guy who killed one person out of self defence and a guy who premeditated the murder of thousands. Morality flatland!
Hint: Trump is not the guy killing out of self-defense. He's premeditated mass deception because it's in his very personality (which is made up of various disorders) and he was bought by the religious Right and peddled by their hypocritical goons. He's an obvious conman and to be one of the ones endlessly defending his non-stop treason is to be a victim of his con.
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Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yup, I noticed.Anything Surt can do to avoid coming to terms with his obvious bias. Give him an inch and he'll take a mile. Okay, fixed, now will you confront your hypocrisy?
Hint: Trump is not the guy killing out of self-defense. He's premeditated mass deception because it's in his very personality (which is made up of various disorders) and he was bought by the religious Right and peddled by their hypocritical goons. He's an obvious conman and to be one of the ones endlessly defending his non-stop treason is to be a victim of his con.
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Rob lied. I responded to your scenario and didn't mention a typo. I commented on it after somebody else did, but I did respond to your scenario without mentioning it(and I did notice it).
Your scenario is wrong no matter if you call it a murder or not. We were discussing people doing the same thing, but on different scales. That isn't what your example was about. It was about two different things. Self defense is not the same as murder. Two politicians of varying levels of corruption are not like a guy killing in self defense and one killing in murder.
Anyways, the bottom line is that the reason the christian right get behind Trump is because they believe that a republican will better serve their interests than a democrat. You can argue that they are mistaken in that belief, but the fact remains that is why they do it.
Yes there are some who "worship" him, but that's a very very tiny minority of the christian right. Plus God is a petty jealous little thing, it's a sin to worship other things.
Originally posted by Surtur
I get why Rob lied, but why would you fall for it? I responded to your scenario and didn't mention a typo. I commented on it after somebody else did, but I did respond to your scenario without mentioning it(and I did notice it).Your scenario is wrong no matter if you call it a murder or not. We were discussing people doing the same thing, but on different scales. That isn't what your example was about. It was about two different things. Self defense is not the same as murder. Two politicians of varying levels of corruption are not like a guy killing in self defense and one killing in murder.
Saying the analogy breaks down is not an honest approach to the issue. It's an analogy. They're both moral issues, so yes, it's relevant. "Forms of killing" vs "Levels of corruption." You might still lock up someone who kills in self defense, but you probably not for as long as you would someone who murdered hundreds or thousands. Likewise with corruption. If someone took a little corrupt campaign contribution, but was otherwise relatively blameless would be less guilty than someone who purposely and knowingly took tons of corrupt contributions and conned anyone and everyone they came into contact with and didn't have an honest bone in their body. Intentions matter. And it's reflected in the justice system.
Surt defense: tries to say the analogy doesn't work. 😂
Originally posted by Surtur
Anyways, the bottom line is that the reason the christian right get behind Trump is because they believe that a republican will better serve their interests than a democrat. You can argue that they are mistaken in that belief, but the fact remains that is why they do it.
I don't disagree.
Originally posted by Surtur
Yes there are some who "worship" him, but that's a very very tiny minority of the christian right. Plus God is a petty jealous little thing, it's a sin to worship other people.
Good lord, I'm pretty sure the writer meant for the use of "worship" in the title to be hyperbolic. But there is a disturbing level of admiration for Trump in that they think he was "chosen by God," as if he's a part of some divine intervention. (My eyes can't roll back in my head far enough). But the point is (if you had read the article) that the Right makes all sorts of excuses for Trump's rampant immorality when they completely rebuked Clinton for one little BJ. But like you said, it's the hypocrisy of him being associated with their political agenda and Clinton wasn't. So that makes his immorality OK...
Politics is a transactional game, and presidents don’t need to be moral to be effective. While much has been made of the hypocrisy of Trump’s Christian supporters, these “values voters” who’d once gone apoplectic over Bill Clinton’s indiscretions and now capitulated to the most immoral president in living memory, the meeting at Trump Tower shows the logical framing of the argument that would lead a certain type of Christian to vote for Trump. “I don’t think Trump changed after that meeting,” Jeffress tells Rolling Stone. “But I know some of those in the room did. Never, never have evangelicals had the access to the president that they have under President Trump.”What transactions don’t account for, however, is how white evangelicals seem alarmingly keen to not just vote for Trump but to also claim him as one of their own, to pronounce — as did Focus on the Family founder James Dobson — that Trump is a “baby Christian,” deserving of ample benefit of the doubt as he learns the ways of righteousness. Or suggest that it “may be immoral” not to support him, as did Liberty University president Jerry Falwell Jr. Or insinuate that the Stormy Daniels payment was fake news, as did Billy Graham’s son Franklin Graham. Or to go on national television and protest that removing Trump from office would lead to a “Civil War-like fracture . . . from which this country will never heal,” as did Jeffress.
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Saying the analogy breaks down is not an honest approach to the issue. It's an analogy. They're both moral issues, so yes, it's relevant. "Forms of killing" vs "Levels of corruption." You might still lock up someone who kills in self defense, but you probably not for as long as you would someone who murdered hundreds or thousands. Likewise with corruption. If someone took a little corrupt campaign contribution, but was otherwise relatively blameless would be less guilty than someone who purposely and knowingly took tons of corrupt contributions and conned anyone and everyone they came into contact with and didn't have an honest bone in their body. Intentions matter. And it's reflected in the justice system.Surt defense: tries to say the analogy doesn't work. 😂
I accurately pointed out your analogy doesn't work(at least IMO) and pointed out a better analogy. Yes taking tons of shady donations is indeed worse than a little. But if $50 in shady donations is not enough to warrant the loss of a vote, I still would like to know the bare minimum in shady donations one would need to get before it begins to matter(this is aimed more at Rob, but you can answer too if you want).
Good lord, I'm pretty sure the writer meant for the use of "worship" in the title to be hyperbolic. But there is a disturbing level of admiration for Trump in that they think he was "chosen by God," as if he's a part of some divine intervention. (My eyes can't roll back in my head far enough). But the point is (if you had read the article) that the Right makes all sorts of excuses for Trump's rampant immorality when they completely rebuked Clinton for one little BJ. But like you said, it's the hypocrisy of him being associated with their political agenda and Clinton wasn't. So that makes his immorality OK...
It's why I put the word in quotes. And the disturbing level of admiration comes from a small minority of Christians.
As for Clinton, yes people tend to make excuses for why something is bad when the other side does it, but not when their side does.
And when both sides practice rampant hypocrisy it is futile to try to go to evangelicals "why don't you care more about trump doing bad things?". Plus for 99% of those saying that, what they really mean is "why don't you vote democrat?"
Originally posted by Surtur
I accurately pointed out your analogy doesn't work. Yes taking tons of shady donations is indeed worse than a little. But if $50 in shady donations is not enough to warrant the loss of a vote, I still would like to know the bare minimum in shady donations one would need to get before it begins to matter(this is aimed more at Rob, but you can answer too if you want).
1 dollar more than their candidate receives.
Originally posted by Surtur
I accurately pointed out your analogy doesn't work(at least IMO) and pointed out a better analogy. Yes taking tons of shady donations is indeed worse than a little. But if $50 in shady donations is not enough to warrant the loss of a vote, I still would like to know the bare minimum in shady donations one would need to get before it begins to matter(this is aimed more at Rob, but you can answer too if you want).
And I pointed out why the analogy does work. Not sure why you don't understand it. Sounds like you just want to throw it out because it's an analogy. And my previous answer to your question still stands: it's a stupid question to ask...
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
But the question seems irrelevant, because any politician taking corporate hand-outs isn't just taking normal people pocket change amounts. They're probably in the hundreds of thousands and millions. So if they're taking corporate hands-outs at all, they're a no-go, because ultimately that's who they are representing. Not we the people.
Originally posted by Surtur
And the disturbing level of admiration comes from a small minority of Christians.
I really think you're underestimating the evangelical influence. There are a lot of fundamentalist evangelical Christians. Much of my close family are. My dad is an evangelical die-hard Republican. It's not a small minority and they really do listen to people like Billy Graham's son and so forth...
THANK YOU, LORD JESUS, FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP
And without the evangelical voting bloc, no Republican candidate could hope to have a path to the presidency. Evangelicals — a term that today refers to people who believe that Jesus died for their sins, that the Bible is the word of God, that every believer has a “born again” or salvation moment, and that the good news of Jesus should be widely disseminated — make up as much as a quarter of the country, or close to 80 million people. Around 60 percent vote, more than any other demographic, and among white evangelical voters, more than three-quarters tend to go to Republicans, thanks to wedge issues like abortion, same-sex marriage, and transgender rights.....
Trump was exactly the type of character you would expect “values voters” to summarily reject — even before the famed “grab ’em by the pussy” tape, the optics weren’t great. He never gained a majority of Christian votes in the primary. Even after he secured the nomination and named Mike Pence to be his VP, a survey of Protestant pastors conducted by Christian polling group LifeWay Research that summer found that only 39 percent of evangelical pastors planned to vote for him.
....
The meeting and other events like it, spread the word, sending radio talk-show hosts and pastors and educators out into the world to preach the gospel of Donald Trump. On Election Day, close to 81 percent of white evangelicals cast their ballots for him, turning out to vote in greater numbers than they had for Mitt Romney and George W. Bush.
[False Idol — Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump]
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
And I pointed out why the analogy does work. Not sure why you don't understand it. Sounds like you just want to throw it out because it's an analogy. And my previous answer to your question still stands: it's a stupid question to ask...
I disagree it doesn't work given we were talking about the same act, but on different scales. Killing in defense might get you locked up, but it's *not* the same as murder. We can just agree to disagree on the analogy it is not a big deal.
Well Rob feels there *is* an acceptable level of shady donations one can take. It's good that you realize it's wrong no matter how much one is getting. I'm still curious what his number is if $1,000 worth of shady donations isn't enough to cost someone his vote. I think that is a valid question, at least for someone who has admitted there is a level of corruption they are willing to tolerate.
I really think you're underestimating the evangelical influence. There are a lot of fundamentalist evangelical Christians. Much of my close family are. My dad is an evangelical die-hard Republican. It's not a small minority and they really do listen to people like Billy Graham's son and so forth...
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of evangelicals, I'm saying IMO it's not anywhere close to the majority of them who view Trump as "divine" or anything like that.
Originally posted by Surtur
Anyways, the bottom line is that the reason the christian right get behind Trump is because they believe that a republican will better serve their interests than a democrat. You can argue that they are mistaken in that belief, but the fact remains that is why they do it.Yes there are some who "worship" him, but that's a very very tiny minority of the christian right. Plus God is a petty jealous little thing, it's a sin to worship other things.
That's correct that Trump serves our interests better (he put two conservatives on SC, after all). Pretty much every single democrat supports abortion which is something that doesn't sit well with most of us who have real Christian beliefs.
Yes, as God admits in the Bible, He is a very jealous God. However, he is far from being "little."
I stand by what I said in my original post that PL is just butthurt that Trump is so popular and the fact he knows no democrat has any real chance of beating him in 2020. PL can laugh it off all he likes but it's true.
