So what is your conclusion DS?
That them repeating that it's the max energy Hercules gives off with a punch is just... sweep that under the rug? You even posted a scan that states that one witch is as powerful as 1.3 Herculeseses.
That they said a punch so naturally all the energy they contain is harming the user, even though that's completely counterintuitive?
The implication is that it's Hercules at his absolute maximum and the potency is him using his best punch to avoid issues like this. It's to avoid people squirming and going "Well it's Hercules at his max power but like maybe it's a jab haha!"
Pak isn't a good writer, but Pak doesn't make things complicated because he hates people on Battleboards questioning and manipulating what he portrays. He's pretty straight forward with his meaning. He wants the term to mean Hercules' max punch, ie any residual Hercs they contain would register into that amount of Hercs if they turned that destructive. If someone has half of Hercs' power worth of wishing power, then they have potentially half of his full power turned into whatever means they want. Not complicated. It doesn't mean that the energy is literally eating away at them and they're withstanding that force continuously. It's not currently being used in that way; why the **** would people arguing what the explanations are mean that? It means they have the capability. Same with when things get compared to a nuke. It doesn't mean everything the being does just blows up cities of Japanese people, nor does it mean they have the energy of a bomb pre-explosion, it just means they have a lot of raw power.
In lieu of you even attempting to make sense of it besides cherry picked scans, then that would stand. Like yes it only measures mystical energy, but why that specific amount and why tie it to Hercules' raw power? It was all just meaningless? They chose absurdly high levels just because haha it was mystical but it all means nothing? Like I don't get how you expect people to buy this when you can't explain the connotations of it. Even if you can get Carver at a loss for words you still haven't provided a better alternative. More objects to enhance or whatever you attempted to put forth still don't explain the ties to power and why numbers are high.
Now I haven't read the Hercules saga since idk... early 2010s? But your explanation just seems off. This is more of a precursor to me having to read it when you reply.
That being said, characters surviving huge attacks but still being KO'ed in comics is nothing new. Good for Hulk that he didn't explode, but he still got knocked out by one stomach attack as opposed to you know the brain. Such a dumb thing to use. I didn't read any page but this one but I suspect strong Carver influences in the origin.
The KO is a way of showing that the attack was too powerful for the character and it doesn't matter if he was knocked out or killed, he would still lose if applied to the forum. Can't show him dying but can show him going to sleep from stomach pain, gotcha. Can show the same Hulk being impaled by sub Hercules force, gotcha. Can show the same Hulk having his limbs shattered from less force, gotcha. Retarded feat. Means nothing. All we know is that Hulk gets knocked out from 134 Hercs of power and it only counts down from there.
Originally posted by Diesldude
But multiple times they showed that they were using hercs to determine the amount of mystic energy they were being emitted by various beings and objects. If it was the force of an all out punch from Hercules, no normal human would have been able to survive being in the same vicinity of a being with even 1/10 of that power let alone half.If a person is emitting half of hercs full punch at all times from their entire body then they would be a danger to other Normal humans and even metas but we saw that isn’t the case.
Yes but you're using conjecture to determine what they mean in regards to the energy, while the statement that 1 Herc= the amount of energy Herc puts out with a single punch is specifically spelled out on panel. There's nothing flat out contradicting the fact that 1 Herc= 1 unfettered punch from Herc, therefore the natural thing to do is to use one's conjecture to interpret a meaning that supports what's spelled out in regards to Herc's punch, not to try to jump through hoops to come up with a complicated reason why the unit of measurement was obviously meant to be totally meaningless to the reader even though it was given specific meaning on panel. After all, I seriously doubt they were sitting around and decided "Hmm, lets waste space in multiple issues to establish a unit of measurement that doesn't indicate a damn thing to anyone reading and would serve no real purpose from as it's used from an "in universe" perspective either." At least IMO.
I would say it takes a certain amount of energy to achieve ANY magical feat.
This energy can be measured in joules, kilowatt-hours, hercs, etc.
The question is whether they measuring the potential energy or something else.
Power=/= energy.
Power is the rate in which energy is given off.
Measuring the amount of energy coming off something or someone is stupid since this value changes instantly and depends on the duration of the measurement, which again gives a rate.
Therefore, Pak was in error in saying energy given off without specifying a time duration. He meant power measured, the speed in which a certain amount of energy is being given off.
To Bran:
In the preceding page to the one everyone focusses on, they say what it measures.
So the original scan is that 1 Herc is the max energy given off by 1 punch.
But what energy? The heat, the sound, the kinetic, the TOTAL? No, it's the amount of magical energy that's being given off. The special kind of energy that all mythological beings radiate. That's my point. We can't take the total energy of Herc's punch, and say that's a Herc....when two panels ago, she explains she's measuring the energy a magical entity radiates.
1 Herc is the totality of one component of his punch. Specifically, the magical part.
Edit: and I get what you're saying - when Pandora's box was in his lungs, it was unleashed like a bomb, whereas Monica was just standing there with the POTENTIAL to do whatever she wanted. Celey had the same line of thought. Your nuke analogy, for example.
But a Herc measures the energy given off. Its already being unleashed. The box was just sitting there, and they already clocked it at 133.45, just sitting there. Monica was just standing there, and she was radiating 0.5 Hercs off her skin. Cho, 0.05 etc.
Its not the capability. They're literally giving it off.
Put it this way.
Nobody measures nuclear weapons in radioactivity when talking about their destructive power. Its all about the megatons and kilotons of TNT - iow, most of the power comes from the blast itself rather than how radioactive it is. SOME destruction comes from the radioactivity, sure - but it's a smaller part of the total energy output.
So when all she's measuring is the radiation....it's a smaller part of the total energy Herc is outputting. The scan NEVER said it was the TOTAL energy, only maximum.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85This part here is undebatable -- since we have it specifically and repeatedly stated on panel.
But what energy? The heat, the sound, the kinetic, the TOTAL? No, it's the amount of magical energy that's being given off. The special kind of energy that all mythological beings radiate.
If it's easier for people, imagine it was said 133 Iron Man(s) maximum punch energy, and when clarified what that energy means, it's defined as the consumed power in his circuitry (which is, obviously, not the same thing as kinetic energy or whatever else), and that it's a unit used to measure the power consumption of people like Steel, Rocket Red, Mr. Terrific etc.
Originally posted by carver9
Lol... didnt concede. Your argument is just ridiculous so we are basically done. Apologies on you put all of that energy into your posts but at this moment in time, your entire argument is futile to me. We have some here that accept the ft as it is and we have Diesldude, Darksaint, Philo, Mr. Mind, deft, and ABHI that accept it as something else. Start a group chat and parade.
Either you're a desperate liar or you truly are so ignorant and uncomprehending of DS's argument that you actually think you're winning.
And having read through several more pages since this, you're just continuing to prove me right. You wore the juice indeed.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Question. Isn't Jen strong in her human form? So why are we using it to discount Monica with wishing well power?
Hulk wished for her and Rick to be cured. They were pure human. Incredible Hulks #632.
Edit:. Cho was also at 0.05 Hercs. Unless you want to say 20 Cho's = 1 of Herc's best punches?
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Question. Isn't Jen strong in her human form? So why are we using it to discount Monica with wishing well power?
Carter's argument is taking Hercules' best feats and multiplying them by over 133 to get what Hulk took from Pandora's box. WB Hulk had less than a quarter Herc from.the Wishing Well when he was measured by the scans. The point DS is arguing is if we take a Herc as literally what force Hercules puts out when punching, Monica was about twice WB Hulk yet couldn't overcome the hold of a normal human. Is Jen not normal human strength when in human form(even if high level)? I dunno, but regardless DS' point would still stand. The following isn't specifically to you, Sin.
Carter is also trying to deflect by moving the goal post saying Monica could just wish her way out. So when cartty needs it to be physical force it's physical force, but when it doesn't help his case it's not, even though they're being measured the same way. When he needs it to be DBZ style level but just physical force it is, when he needs it to be something else, it's something else. His usual contradictions.
After reading through the thread and seeing the arguments presented, I think Pak just threw out a random number to go with a measurement he just came up with and used a combination he thought sounded cool. Similar to Flash saving that South Korean city from a nuke.
Even if I low-ball the distance to one way(let's say he's magically teleported to each person after he runs the last to safety), and assume he carried two each time(sometimes he carried one, sometimes two), giving 266,000 trips, and assume it's all in a straight line(so exactly 35 miles each trip), that would be 9,310,000 miles.
At the speed of light that would take.....50 seconds. Yet it took place in less than a microsecond, and I significantly low-balled the actual distance he would have traveled. Note the narration explicitly says it's "a hairbreadth under lightspeed."
So the writer just made something up that sounded cool. I think this is what Pak did. But kept using it so decided to go more into detail. Whether he actually put thought into it or threw it out almost as randomly as "133 Hercs" he clearly made it not what carter and those on his side are arguing.
DS' body heat analogy is the best comparison. Mythological beings radiate mystical energy, in a manner similar to mammals giving off heat, 'cuz comics. Like a mammal at work, more comes off when exerting effort, hence the comparison to a body producing more heat when punching than resting. 'Cuz..... comics.
The arguments against this requires ignoring characters being measured in Hercs simply because they have Wishing Well water on them, or an inanimate but mystical structure being measured in Hercs.
Accusations of lowballing or trolling are either dishonest, or people failing to understand the arguments DS is making. But you guys are probably wondering why the juice isn't working.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
What’s the point of all of this
DS pretty much explained it well enoughRegardless OBM also explain why this isn’t even a feat....
Like what a pointless debate because Carver refuses to admit he doesn’t even know what he arguing anymore
He did explain it well. Yet they're still arguing against HIM, not his argument. I'm talking their arguments are usually either strawmen or showing they're not understanding it. I guess I'm hoping to have people prove they're not incompetent or dishonest.
As for carter, while he is a liar, I don't think he's lying here. Given how hard he's trying, and how often he backs down when proven wrong and even he understands it, I think he's just overly confident and thinks he's right because he doesn't actually understand. Clearly he's said a number of things that aren't actually relevant to DS' argument. He's confident because he's wearing the juice.
It's not that I'm going to just stop responding because I feel like im wrong, im going to stop responding because we have been arguing the same thing for pages with no success. How far do you think this should go? We are on page 15 with majority of the pages being about this argument. 20 pages, 30? Dark havent convinced me and it seems like others disagree as well. The only thing I'm seeing is the same typical group discrediting a ft like they did 99% of Thor and Surfer showings. 2014, I would probably keep going with this but there comes a time when it's time to end the convo. Yes, I will keep mentioning the ft. Nice observation.
Originally posted by carver9
It's not that I'm going to just stop responding because I feel like im wrong, im going to stop responding because we have been arguing the same thing for pages with no success. How far do you think this should go? We are on page 15 with majority of the pages being about this argument. 20 pages, 30? Dark havent convinced me and it seems like others disagree as well. The only thing I'm seeing is the same typical group discrediting a ft like they did 99% of Thor and Surfer showings. 2014, I would probably keep going with this but there comes a time when it's time to end the convo. Yes, I will keep mentioning the ft. Nice observation.
You stopped posting in Orion vs WW when I showed you wrong about her force field protecting from a black hole. You stopped again when I showed you had previously, and on numerous occasions, had spoken badly about Amazo, including using WW stalemating him, until you needed to argue for WW and suddenly stalemating Amazo was amazing (when all she really did was keep him busy a few pages before basically being one-shot). Then when you finally showed up you made a lame excuse and stopped posting again. And all these were while you were still active in other threads.
I don't think you're failing to comprehend DS' argument JUST because you usually back down, but your very arguments show you don't actually understand his arguments. Unless you're just lying. The reason he brought up the body heat comparison was because the mystical energy is more akin to that, not he's intentionally channeling magic to amp his punches.
So you're between a rock and a hard place. Either you hurt your pride and ego and concede you were arguing against something you didn't understand, or you prove to be a liar by pretending this point was never made. Well that or you can genuinely be this dense that you have it spelled out for you yet still don't understand.
I think the you were wearing the juice analogy is too generous. You wouldn't even make it to the bank. You'd somehow manage to shoot yourself. With the safety on. And gun unloaded. Because you're that incompetent you can still blunder even when it's physically impossible.
Originally posted by carver9
It's not that I'm going to just stop responding because I feel like im wrong, im going to stop responding because we have been arguing the same thing for pages with no success. How far do you think this should go? We are on page 15 with majority of the pages being about this argument. 20 pages, 30? Dark havent convinced me and it seems like others disagree as well. The only thing I'm seeing is the same typical group discrediting a ft like they did 99% of Thor and Surfer showings. 2014, I would probably keep going with this but there comes a time when it's time to end the convo. Yes, I will keep mentioning the ft. Nice observation.
But you haven't actually done any debating.
All you've done is say that I'm wrong, I have terrible arguments, and that my logic is wrong.
The only argument you put forth was that Wendigo, BiBeast etc weren't mystical, yet Cosimo was still using the exact same mystical energy scanner as sent to the kids too search for them. Which I patiently explained why, and even offered up other examples (Monica, Cho, Betty, Hulk etc). I didn't even laugh at you for saying Wendigo wasn't mystical, though it was tempting- because I wasn't attacking you, nitpicking, but was debating your arguments.
Whereas all I've gotten is that I'm terrible, all celey has said is that my analogies are wrong (without explaining why, or improving them) and OBM has said it seems off. That's it.
Originally posted by carver9
It said its getting a mystic energy reading. Mystical beings can be just as strong as Hercules who's a mystical being himself. Hercules strength was used to create the Hercs, not his blasting power, lol. If Herc STRENGTH is the measurement of Hercs, his entire power output, then that Hulk withstood power output equivalent to 133 Hercules.Are you in denial that there are mystical beings as strong as Hercules (who is mystical himself)? They also mentioned in the scan that you posted that 1 Herc is equivalent to Hercules at his older self.