MCU: Scarlet Witch runs the Thor Gauntlet

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Seriously, dude? I literally have said twice now that I back Thor and that he could take her out with a single decent lightning strike. I was responding to Psychotron's post regarding an actual gun and literally quoted him while doing so. You're strawmanning me now for absolutely no reason.

What's more, a gun or cannon or other projectile weapon can actually be telekinetically torn from his grip, unlike inherent powers.

Nah, I'm not trying to streawman you, I wasn't paying attention and was kinda skimming thru. My bad.

Could Wanda pull Mjolnir? We know Helas Mjolnirs limit.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Nah, I'm not trying to streawman you, I wasn't paying attention and was kinda skimming thru. My bad.

Could Wanda pull Mjolnir? We know Helas Mjolnirs limit.

I don't see a Hela explosion being replicated. I was potentially thinking more like chip a piece off the edge of Mjolnir, or a crack in Stormbreaker or something. More along the lines of what we saw with Thanos' sword. Damaged, but still functional. But, again, not even saying that would happen. Just kinda wondering because I don't see much discussion of the actual fight.

Though it does make one wonder how Mjolnir would register Scarlet Witch's energy if she grabbed it telekinetically. In fact, I think I've pondered something similar in the past when discussing if a Force User could lift Mjolnir indirectly. I'm inclined to think not though, because the hammer seems to sense intent (based on guys trying to use a pick up truck to technically move it indirectly). So, I don't think she could freely move it around.

Anyway, as I have said before, any Thor from Ragnarok on can just zap her regardless of what happens otherwise. And even AoU Thor could probably smash right through her shield and turn her into paste if he really put some effort into a hammer toss.

And wow, this post was a legit incoherent typo tsunami before I did a once over.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
While you might not consider it hax, Feige himself has said it's essentially extra-dimensional energy manipulation (like Dr Strange and co do) that she just happens to manifest that way due to her lack of experience. And yes, we know what she can do, which includes destroying things as rare and powerful as Infinity Stones. And at no point did I say she can "wreck" Mjolnir. In fact, I never made any definitive statements in that regard. I simply wondered, given her higher end feats, whether she could damage either weapon if presented with the opportunity.

Feige can say whatever he wants but you know we go by onscreen feats here. And as far as Wanda's TK is concerned, they seem to work in pretty consistent manner with some pretty clear limitations. So... not very hax-like. Her mind control seems more hax-like but not her TK.

Anyway, what I will say is that Wanda can win round 1 IF she does manage to keep Mjolnir away from Thor. Just don't know how she's going to do that.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Feige can say whatever he wants but you know we go by onscreen feats here. And as far as Wanda's TK is concerned, they seem to work in pretty consistent manner with some pretty clear limitations. So... not very hax-like. Her mind control seems more hax-like but not her TK.

Good thing we don't need his statement then. As I've already pointed out, we've seen her do things like shatter an Infinity Stone onscreen. But, seeing as you have made the claim, what's the clear upper limit of what Wanda can or cannot do/damage?

Wanda gets fried but kills Thor 2.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Feige can say whatever he wants but you know we go by onscreen feats here. And as far as Wanda's TK is concerned, they seem to work in pretty consistent manner with some pretty clear limitations. So... not very hax-like. Her mind control seems more hax-like but not her TK.

Anyway, what I will say is that Wanda can win round 1 IF she does manage to keep Mjolnir away from Thor. Just don't know how she's going to do that.

I have no problems with backing Thor for a sweep, as I have done so myself. But I don't see how anyone can claim we have clear defined limits on what Wanda can or cannot affect with her TK powers when there isn't a clear cut answer ever given onscreen. What have we seen an all-out Wanda try and fail to TK with her full power? This isn't like Hulk-lite that clearly needed Giant-Man to rescue them in Endgame. Even the IG shatter feat was only half her power, as the other half was spent pushing back Thanos long enough to do it (which she succeeded in, despite him bolstering his efforts with another Infinity Stone). And before some people try and twist this statement, no, I am not saying she has unlimited power. I am simply saying we have yet to see its limits displayed onscreen.

Doh, meant to write IS shatter feat lol.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Good thing we don't need his statement then. As I've already pointed out, we've seen her do things like shatter an Infinity Stone onscreen. But, seeing as you have made the claim, what's the clear upper limit of what Wanda can or cannot do/damage?

If you listen to the explanation Vision gives in Infinity War, the reason Wanda was able to break the Mind Stone was because her powers shared a similar signature to it since she got her powers from the same stone. It's not like she broke it by pure strength alone, nor is there proof that she can break the other infinity stones.

As for limitations... We know that she was only powerful enough to contain the bomb in civil war for a few seconds before it became too much for her to handle. We know that her shields weren't powerful enough to protect her completely from the airstrike that Thanos called down. We know that Wanda's strongest TK blasts are not enough to seriously injure beings like Proxima Midnight. We know that Wanda's TK wasn't strong enough to crush Thanos in an instant and that she needed multiple seconds to slowly crush him. We know that during that time, Thanos was in pain but didn't end up with any serious injury.

It should also be noted that Thanos' strength as he tried to cut Wanda with his sword contributed to Wanda's ability to break the sword. The sword literally started cracking as Thanos pushed down on it, so it wasn't Wanda's strength alone that ruined it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If you listen to the explanation Vision gives in Infinity War, the reason Wanda was able to break the Mind Stone was because her powers shared a similar signature to it since she got her powers from the same stone. It's not like she broke it by pure strength alone, nor is there proof that she can break the other infinity stones.

As for limitations... We know that she was only powerful enough to contain the bomb in civil war for a few seconds before it became too much for her to handle. We know that her shields weren't powerful enough to protect her completely from the airstrike that Thanos called down. We know that Wanda's strongest TK blasts are not enough to seriously injure beings like Proxima Midnight. We know that Wanda's TK wasn't strong enough to crush Thanos with a single thought and that she needed multiple seconds to slowly crush him. We know that during that time, Thanos was in pain but didn't end up with any serious injury.

It should also be noted that Thanos' strength as he tried to cut Wanda with his sword contributed to Wanda's ability to break the sword. The sword literally started cracking as Thanos pushed down on it, so it wasn't Wanda's strength alone that ruined it.

And yet she did it while also simultaneously resisting Thanos using the Space Stone to help him (which he also uses as a shield against Iron Man at one point). And that, even without said Stone, Thanos could physically overpower 99.9% of the heroes onscreen and pop Vision's forehead open like an egg shell.

Wanda was still a relative noob with the bomb. And that's a low-end relative to catching a collapsing control tower later in that same film (which she only dropped after WM shot her with a sonic cannon from behind), stopping a speeding train in AoU (which she successfully did) or lifting giant alien energy wheels in IW (which she also successfully did). And she had to throw up a shield at the very last moment in Endgame, as she was still gripping Thanos. Wong and the other Earth sorcerers had a moment to fully cast their shield spells (which is clearly shown). In contrast, we see her throwing her arms up pretty much at the last instant. So, unless you genuinely believe that she couldn't do any better whatsoever even if she had a moment to properly prepare herself, that's clearly not a proper representation of her shield strength.

Also, there is no proof that those blasts against Proxima and Corvus were her strongest. The scene makes it clear her priority was getting Vision (and by extension the Mind Stone) away from the battlefield, which is why she repeatedly went for the quick knockdown, grabbed Vision and tried to run.

And yet Thanos knew he was done for to the point where he had his own army decimated just to get free. And considering how consistently durable Thanos is shown to be, especially against energy based attacks, to the point where he tanked point blank blasts from Captain Marvel and has shaken off IW Thor's lightning, that's not a low end for Wanda. Seriously, the scene makes it painfully clear that Thanos was dead meat without assistance. The scene also makes it that clear that Thanos can repeatedly batter things as tough as Vibranium, breaking it in the process, without doing any damage to his sword. So, Wanda breaking a piece off his sword and rendering him nigh-helpless is very much meant to be a showcase of her true power. And Feige doesn't need to reaffirm it in multiple interviews (even though he has) for that to be clear. You don't have to like it, but trying to argue against it at this point is pretty silly IMO.

Did she ever use her mind whammy after AOU?

Not that I can recall. Well, not in combat. She has scanned Vision like once or twice IIRC, but they were having a casual conversation both times. So, not really applicable to a fight. Telepathy is a sticky one to handle, because it can be an extremely OP power when no one else has it (as I mentioned in another thread, likely also the reason they scrapped Strange doing a mental attack on Thanos during the Titan battle). So, the MCU has mostly kept it to a minimum so far. But it's going to be interesting to see how they will handle the X-Men and the like down the line, considering all the potential telepath characters in those ranks.

Wanda takes all rounds. There is nothing Thor can do to getting crushed. And Wanda's shields are OP.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Wanda takes all rounds. There is nothing Thor can do to getting crushed. And Wanda's shields are OP.

I'm curious what makes you think her shields are OP? As I have said already, I don't think the ship blast from Endgame is a true representation of her best shield effort, but even I will admit that defense is by far her weakest area. Also, he does have something he can do:

Even Fat Thor can still summon lightning on his own. Notice he's already channeling the power as Mjolnir and then Stormbreaker reach him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And yet she did it while also simultaneously resisting Thanos using the Space Stone to help him (which he also uses as a shield against Iron Man at one point). And that, even without said Stone, Thanos could physically overpower 99.9% of the heroes onscreen and pop Vision's forehead open like an egg shell.

Wanda was still a relative noob with the bomb. And that's a low-end relative to catching a collapsing control tower later in that same film (which she only dropped after WM shot her with a sonic cannon from behind), stopping a speeding train in AoU (which she successfully did) or lifting giant alien energy wheels in IW (which she also successfully did). And she had to throw up a shield at the very last moment in Endgame, as she was still gripping Thanos. Wong and the other Earth sorcerers had a moment to fully cast their shield spells (which is clearly shown). In contrast, we see her throwing her arms up pretty much at the last instant. So, unless you genuinely believe that she couldn't do any better whatsoever even if she had a moment to properly prepare herself, that's clearly not a proper representation of her shield strength.

Also, there is no proof that those blasts against Proxima and Corvus were her strongest. The scene makes it clear her priority was getting Vision (and by extension the Mind Stone) away from the battlefield, which is why she repeatedly went for the quick knockdown, grabbed Vision and tried to run.

And yet Thanos knew he was done for to the point where he had his own army decimated just to get free. And considering how consistently durable Thanos is shown to be, especially against energy based attacks, to the point where he tanked point blank blasts from Captain Marvel and has shaken off IW Thor's lightning, that's not a low end for Wanda. Seriously, the scene makes it painfully clear that Thanos was dead meat without assistance. The scene also makes it that clear that Thanos can repeatedly batter things as tough as Vibranium, breaking it in the process, without doing any damage to his sword. So, Wanda breaking a piece off his sword and rendering him nigh-helpless is very much meant to be a showcase of her true power. And Feige doesn't need to reaffirm it in multiple interviews (even though he has) for that to be clear. You don't have to like it, but trying to argue against it at this point is pretty silly IMO.

You're making far too many assumptions just to excuse Wanda's failings, instead of just calling them out as we see on screen. Note that I never said Wanda wasn't powerful, nor did I say I knew her upper limit. What I said was that she clearly had limits, which contradicts your claim that she had hax powers.

1. You claim Wanda was inexperienced in CW, yet I don't recall her getting any massive experiences between that and IW.
2. Yeah she caught the falling tower, but she was clearly struggling and didn't seem like she could maintain it indefinitely. This also doesn't seem more difficult than containing a bomb.
3. You keep ignoring the fact that she broke the mind gem specifically because she had the same power signature as it.
4. Wanda already proved that she's strong enough to lift Thanos up in the air. If you're strong enough to lift somebody up, it's not that much more difficult to push them back. Sure Thanos is strong his pushing force is still limited by his weight and friction with the ground, whereas Wanda's push isn't limited by that. Besides, Thanos wasn't even attacking her, merely pushing forward. He used the space gem to shield himself, not to attack. And even then he was slowly moving forward.
5. If you're saying Wanda didn't have enough time to put up her shields, then that's a limitation ain't it? Shows she can't maintain her shields while attacking.
6. Now why wouldn't she use her strongest attacks against Proxima when her life and Visions's were on the line? Kinda stupid to hold back at that point right? Like I said, it seems like you just keep making excuses instead of calling it out as it is.
7. Thor and Captain Marvel could have easily rendered Thanos nigh helpless as well had they chosen to fight him from a distance and just bombarded him with long-range shots. Just so happens that Wanda was apparently the only one smart enough to think of doing it. So good on Wanda, but lets not pretend that she was the only one capable of doing it.
8. Yeah, Thanos called down an airstrike because he was held in the air unable to move and was slowly getting crushed. That still shows that Wanda's powers have limitations, as she needed time in order to crush Thanos instead of doing it instantly like how we see Graviton do it.
9. Are you ignoring the fact that Thanos' strength also contributed to the breaking of his sword?
10. Yeah she stopped a train in AoU but she wasn't able to do it quickly right? Again, limitations.

In the end, I never said she isn't strong, so stop trying to prove she's strong because I don't disagree. What I'm showing you are all the times she failed to do what she wanted to do, which shows that she clearly has limits, which means her powers can't be considered hax powers. Her powers fail her far too often for you to claim that they're hax.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Nah, I don't consider her powers hax. Her TK powers are pretty specific, regardless of where it came from, and we have enough feats from movies to determine the limits of what she can do at the moment.

Just because Thanos' sword might be made of Uru doesn't mean it was made the same way as Mjolnir. Doesn't mean it was made with the same level of craftmanship. And a warhammer is way harder to destroy than a sword blade.

What I'm saying is, 2 objects can be made of similar material yet be completely different durability wise. So Wanda cracking Thanos' sword is not proof that she can wreck Mjolnir.

The sword is smashed Captain America's shield to pieces. That's better than anything movie Mjolnir has ever done. It's pretty safe to assume it's more durable than the maul (it's not a warhammer).

Originally posted by Psychotron
The sword is smashed Captain America's shield to pieces. That's better than anything movie Mjolnir has ever done. It's pretty safe to assume it's more durable than the maul (it's not a warhammer).

I wouldn't exactly call that smashing the shield to pieces. He hacked at the edge of the shield, cutting into it, and once the integrity of the shield was compromised he was able to eventually crack it open with a few more hits.

I mean, that's indeed impressive, but you make it sound like he blew it apart with one hit.

P.s. A maul is a type of warhammer.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'm curious what makes you think her shields are OP? As I have said already, I don't think the ship blast from Endgame is a true representation of her best shield effort, but even I will admit that defense is by far her weakest area. Also, he does have something he can do:

Even Fat Thor can still summon lightning on his own. Notice he's already channeling the power as Mjolnir and then Stormbreaker reach him.

Wanda was holding Thanos with her shields while focusing most of her energies on destroying the Mind Stone. In fact Thanos was using te Space stone and was still fairly held.

Also, Thanos' sword broke Vibranium while it was useless against Wanda's shields.

Lightning is not breaching Wanda's defences.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're making far too many assumptions just to excuse Wanda's failings, instead of just calling them out as we see on screen. Note that I never said Wanda wasn't powerful, nor did I say I knew her upper limit. What I said was that she clearly had limits, which contradicts your claim that she had hax powers.

1. You claim Wanda was inexperienced in CW, yet I don't recall her getting any massive experiences between that and IW.
2. Yeah she caught the falling tower, but she was clearly struggling and didn't seem like she could maintain it indefinitely. This also doesn't seem more difficult than containing a bomb.
3. You keep ignoring the fact that she broke the mind gem specifically because she had the same power signature as it.
4. Wanda already proved that she's strong enough to lift Thanos up in the air. If you're strong enough to lift somebody up, it's not that much more difficult to push them back. Sure Thanos is strong his pushing force is still limited by his weight and friction with the ground, whereas Wanda's push isn't limited by that. Besides, Thanos wasn't even attacking her, merely pushing forward. He used the space gem to shield himself, not to attack. And even then he was slowly moving forward.
5. If you're saying Wanda didn't have enough time to put up her shields, then that's a limitation ain't it? Shows she can't maintain her shields while attacking.
6. Now why wouldn't she use her strongest attacks against Proxima when her life and Visions's were on the line? Kinda stupid to hold back at that point right? Like I said, it seems like you just keep making excuses instead of calling it out as it is.
7. Thor and Captain Marvel could have easily rendered Thanos nigh helpless as well had they chosen to fight him from a distance and just bombarded him with long-range shots. Just so happens that Wanda was apparently the only one smart enough to think of doing it. So good on Wanda, but lets not pretend that she was the only one capable of doing it.
8. Yeah, Thanos called down an airstrike because he was held in the air unable to move and was slowly getting crushed. That still shows that Wanda's powers have limitations, as she needed time in order to crush Thanos instead of doing it instantly like how we see Graviton do it.
9. Are you ignoring the fact that Thanos' strength also contributed to the breaking of his sword?
10. Yeah she stopped a train in AoU but she wasn't able to do it quickly right? Again, limitations.

In the end, I never said she isn't strong, so stop trying to prove she's strong because I don't disagree. What I'm showing you are all the times she failed to do what she wanted to do, which shows that she clearly has limits, which means her powers can't be considered hax powers. Her powers fail her far too often for you to claim that they're hax.

Wow, dude. Pot, kettle. You claim I make assumptions to excuse her so-called failings, yet you have repeatedly made assumptions about her in this thread (and others in the past) in order to portray her negatively. Also, the fact that you are still outright lowballing her repelling Thanos who was actively using an Infinity Stone to help him says it all. Because, no, lifting Thanos' pure mass (which is maybe a couple thousands lbs at best) is not the same as countering the forward momentum he is actively generating while using an Infinity Stone as a shield, and you know this. Hell, if you tied a rope around Thanos, Cap could probably easily hold his weight alone. And he used the Space Stone for a reason, as it helps him with momentum manipulation, as seen when he also halted Loki's dagger strike, shielded himself from some of Iron Man's attacks using it as well and held WM in midair. And he was slowly moving forward (with visible strain on his face), because Wanda was actively pushing him back. Anyway, before this exchange becomes even more hostile, I am going to move on.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Wanda was holding Thanos with her shields while focusing most of her energies on destroying the Mind Stone. In fact Thanos was using te Space stone and was still fairly held.

Also, Thanos' sword broke Vibranium while it was useless against Wanda's shields.

Lightning is not breaching Wanda's defences.

It wasn't a shield she fended Thanos off with though. It was a concentrated energy beam. She basically went DBZ for that scene lol. And it seemed to me more like she gripped his sword with her powers (that classic martial arts movie catching the sword strike bit, but with tk instead). Could be wrong, but that's how it visually appeared to me.