Asajj Ventress vs Darth Maul

Originally posted by Scizard
We're talking about legends now? Mixing up canon with legends doesn't go well. Canon Aayla isn't the same as legends Aayla.

I'll clarify why it isn't impressive then. Maul is leagues above Aayla, shown by how he just one shots her, directing a bit of energy to dispose of Aayla isn't all that impressive. It just shows he is capable of multi-tasking.

And by the way Mace is holding his lightsaber it looks like Mace is the one blocking the strike, not Maul. I would say it also shows strength and balance, but it doesn't suddenly make Maul that impressive, it's certainly not a scalable feat. It doesn't tell us anything other than Maul can clash blades with Mace Windu, which is obvious considering he was able to briefely clash with Palpatine and even extremely weak characters are able to clash with far stronger opponents. I don't see what else this proves?

Also I'm referring to his fight in Season 2, not one.

Son of Dathomir comics exist in Legends to, not just Canon. It exists in both continuities, so it's usable for both Legends and Canon debates.

Yes it shows that Maul is leagues above Aayla, what's bad about being leagues above Aayla? And Maul wasn't just merely multitasking, he was multitasking when fighting Mace mother****ing Windu whilst dealing with Aayla at the same time, and this speaks volumes of Maul's refined skill set because Juyo, his main form, isn't designed for multiple opponents, Maul's feat of contending with Mace whilst dealing with another Jedi at the same time shows us that Maul is a great and masterful swordsman.

Comic panels are static images though, I could also argue that Maul is parrying a strike from Mace, and even if Maul is attacking and Mace is blocking Maul's strike, that doesn't render it less impressive. I'm not trying to use the feat to scale off anything, so you're strawmanning me. Maul clashed blades with Sidious indeed... Whilst having help from Savage Opress, whilst fighting a Sidious who was trolling them given how he is almost constantly laughing his ass off, and in the Shadow Conspiracy novelised version of the fight, Sidious ramps up his speed at the end and becomes far too fast for Maul to percieve, which implies that Sidious only starts getting serious in the end of the fight, which is when Maul is rage amped over Savage's death.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
I'm not making stuff up, I literally quoted a sentence from an LFL source and added further analysis of it, and this is this is your response? And the notion that Maul/Savage apparently didn't learn from their mistakes is assuming that they had another fight with Kenobi in the exact same type of environment - this is obviously false, but it didn't happen. You've not addressed anything that I've said, I don't want to spend several pages repeating myself, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just because you want to make excuses as to why Kenobi was doing really well against Maul and Savage don't mean we have to accept it we accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi out manned still managed to hold his own and you could even argue had the advantage the 2nd time they met.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Son of Dathomir comics exist in Legends to, not just Canon. It exists in both continuities, so it's usable for both Legends and Canon debates.

Yes it shows that Maul is leagues above Aayla, what's bad about being leagues above Aayla? And Maul wasn't just merely multitasking, he was multitasking when fighting Mace mother****ing Windu whilst dealing with Aayla at the same time, and this speaks volumes of Maul's refined skill set because Juyo, his main form, isn't designed for multiple opponents, Maul's feat of contending with Mace whilst dealing with another Jedi at the same time shows us that Maul is a great and masterful swordsman.

Comic panels are static images though, I could also argue that Maul is parrying a strike from Mace, and even if Maul is attacking and Mace is blocking Maul's strike, that doesn't render it less impressive. I'm not trying to use the feat to scale off anything, so you're strawmanning me. Maul clashed blades with Sidious indeed... Whilst having help from Savage Opress, whilst fighting a Sidious who was trolling them given how he is almost constantly laughing his ass off, and in the Shadow Conspiracy novelised version of the fight, Sidious ramps up his speed at the end and becomes far too fast for Maul to percieve, which implies that Sidious only starts getting serious in the end of the fight, which is when Maul is rage amped over Savage's death.

Thought this was a canon debate? And what's your point then? Because my point is it really isn't useful for a debate, if that feat wasn't there then it wouldn't change anything.

At the end of the day all Maul does is swing his blade at maul and then kick Aayla from behind. It being Mace Windu changes little because it's only ONE swing.

Grievous could swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time as well. I'm sure Ventress could also swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time.

Yes, you are correct about Sidious, the point is lesser opponents are capable of BRIEFELY fighting way stronger opponents. So this does not mean Mace is close to Maul if that's what you're trying to imply, which is the only way I see this being Mauls 'best feat'.

Although I feel we are just arguing semantics now, and if you think that I'm strawmanning you then that's not my intention. I just don't see how this is a note worthy feat in the circumstances of a 1v1 debate.

Also, no one is denying Maul is a great swordsmen?

Also I'm curious to what people think of Asajj straight up knocking out Kenobi while she's fighting Anakin as well. Now I see that as impressive as Kenobi should be a similar level as Asajj, and maybe it could've been over for Kenobi if Anakin wasn't there?

Originally posted by Scizard
Also I'm curious to what people think of Asajj straight up knocking out Kenobi while she's fighting Anakin as well. Now I see that as impressive as Kenobi should be a similar level as Asajj, and maybe it could've been over for Kenobi if Anakin wasn't there?

https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=152

Originally posted by Scizard
https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=152

Savage seems superior to Assaj though in their encounters and duels... Obviously Maul is better than savage though, i reckon edge to Maul ..

Originally posted by Scizard
Thought this was a canon debate? And what's your point then? Because my point is it really isn't useful for a debate, if that feat wasn't there then it wouldn't change anything.

At the end of the day all Maul does is swing his blade at maul and then kick Aayla from behind. It being Mace Windu changes little because it's only ONE swing.

Grievous could swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time as well. I'm sure Ventress could also swing at Mace and kick a far lesser opponent at the same time.

Yes, you are correct about Sidious, the point is lesser opponents are capable of BRIEFELY fighting way stronger opponents. So this does not mean Mace is close to Maul if that's what you're trying to imply, which is the only way I see this being Mauls 'best feat'.

Although I feel we are just arguing semantics now, and if you think that I'm strawmanning you then that's not my intention. I just don't see how this is a note worthy feat in the circumstances of a 1v1 debate.

Also, no one is denying Maul is a great swordsmen?

The OP didn't specify if this is Legends, Canon, or both. My point is that SoD can be used for any Canon or Legends debates because it exists in both continuities. And the feat itself is absolutely usable for debating purposes, I'm tired of explaining this and I'm tired of you handwaving it as nothing more than "Maul only exchanged ONE blow with Mace whilst kicking Aayla" because this is assuming that's all they did, which is absolutely incorrect because there's the concept of an off panel fight, all we know is that Maul fights Mace and Aayla at the same time, and the most significant thing that happens is that Maul kicks Aayla whilst fending off Mace, which is why it was shown on panel, the writers don't have the resources to show fights in their entirety.

You're arguing that Grievous and Ventress can replicate this performance in the same timeline to trivialise the feat, but did that happen? No it didn't, so you're just using the "Oh I'm sure these guys can also do that" card to trivialise Maul's feat. No I'm not arguing that Mace and Maul are near equals, there's no evidence for that, but they don't need to be near equals for this to be Maul's best feat.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
The key quote here: "added my further analysis".

Just because you want to make excuses as to why Kenobi was doing really well against Maul and Savage don't mean we have to accept it we accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi out manned still managed to hold his own and you could even argue had the advantage the 2nd time they met.

I wrote this analysis to explain why Maul and Savage were initially startled by Obi-Wan's aggression, and I find it amusing that you completely brushed it off and decided to lecture me.

Just because you don't want to accept the in-universe ramifications for why Kenobi doing really well against Maul and Savage doesn't mean that we have to bow down to your personal incredility. We accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi, outnumbered, holding his own against the Zabrack brothers in the cave, but additional sources that go into further detail that the on screen episodes themselves can't spell out, tell us more.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
The OP didn't specify if this is Legends, Canon, or both. My point is that SoD can be used for any Canon or Legends debates because it exists in both continuities. And the feat itself is absolutely usable for debating purposes, I'm tired of explaining this and I'm tired of you handwaving it as nothing more than "Maul only exchanged ONE blow with Mace whilst kicking Aayla" because this is assuming that's all they did, which is absolutely incorrect because there's the concept of an off panel fight, all we know is that Maul fights Mace and Aayla at the same time, and the most significant thing that happens is that Maul kicks Aayla whilst fending off Mace, which is why it was shown on panel, the writers don't have the resources to show fights in their entirety.

You're arguing that Grievous and Ventress can replicate this performance in the same timeline to trivialise the feat, but did that happen? No it didn't, so you're just using the "Oh I'm sure these guys can also do that" card to trivialise Maul's feat. No I'm not arguing that Mace and Maul are near equals, there's no evidence for that, but they don't need to be near equals for this to be Maul's best feat.

I already understand that the fight COULD be longer, however Aayla still could've been kicked in the first seconds of the fight. This is what you're not understanding, briefely fighting someone does not prove anything, and you cannot prove this was anything longer than a brief fight. Sure comic pannels can be longer but that doesn't mean that this was nesscearily a long or even medium sized fight. The only thing you can say is that this fight is probably longer than one kick from Maul and one parry/block from Mace. Anything else and you're making assumptions.

And I still don't see how this is a feat you can use in a 1v1 debate here. It's not going to prove anything, ok Maul fought Aayla and Mace for like two seconds? Stop trying to say it's anything more than that. It could be, but it could also only be two seconds and if it was longer, it also could be Mace Windu kicking Mauls ass for 60 seconds. It's not useful at all because there's too many variables.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
I wrote this analysis to explain why Maul and Savage were initially startled by Obi-Wan's aggression, and I find it amusing that you completely brushed it off and decided to lecture me.

Just because you don't want to accept the in-universe ramifications for why Kenobi doing really well against Maul and Savage doesn't mean that we have to bow down to your personal incredility. We accept what we see on screen and we saw Kenobi, outnumbered, holding his own against the Zabrack brothers in the cave, but additional sources that go into further detail that the on screen episodes themselves can't spell out, tell us more.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You are once again making stuff up without backing it up. Maul didn't seem to have any issues with Kenobi in the tight quarters in their first fight on the ship that was in itself tight quarters.

In other words, this is just a contrived repetition of "NOPE, NOPE, YOU DID IT, YOU DID IT!!" whilst not understanding what I am saying.

Oh and when Maul and Kenobi's fight on the cargo ship, on Florrum, was actually a lot wider and more spacious than the cave, so you're incorrect.

Originally posted by Scizard
I already understand that the fight COULD be longer, however Aayla still could've been kicked in the first seconds of the fight. This is what you're not understanding, briefely fighting someone does not prove anything, and you cannot prove this was anything longer than a brief fight. Sure comic pannels can be longer but that doesn't mean that this was nesscearily a long or even medium sized fight. The only thing you can say is that this fight is probably longer than one kick from Maul and one parry/block from Mace. Anything else and you're making assumptions.

And I still don't see how this is a feat you can use in a 1v1 debate here. It's not going to prove anything, ok Maul fought Aayla and Mace for like two seconds? Stop trying to say it's anything more than that. It could be, but it could also only be two seconds and if it was longer, it also could be Mace Windu kicking Mauls ass for 60 seconds. It's not useful at all because there's too many variables.

OK, at least we've made some progress. Maul and Windu & Secura's fight is longer than it would appear (i.e. 2 seconds), but honestly, even a 10-20 second fight is still something to consider. I've not been trying to insert anything into the fight, because all we actually saw was Maul kicking Aayla whilst either attacking Mace or defending himself from Mace. The thing that I was trying to emphasise that it's not a 2 second fight. I think it was a 10 second fight, maybe 20 seconds, perhaps even 30 seconds, but either of that is good enough for me. If you don't think a 10-30 seconds fight is good enough, then we just have different methodology, so we'll just need to agree to disagree. You are mistaken if you are thinking that I was trying to add something what happened off panel. Indeed we don't know what happened off panel, all we know is that they fought off panel AND on pannel, but did I make a claim about what happened off panel, besides that they fought off panel? No.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
OK, at least we've made some progress. Maul and Windu & Secura's fight is longer than it would appear (i.e. 2 seconds), but honestly, even a 10-20 second fight is still something to consider. I've not been trying to insert anything into the fight, because all we actually saw was Maul kicking Aayla whilst either attacking Mace or defending himself from Mace. The thing that I was trying to emphasise that it's not a 2 second fight. I think it was a 10 second fight, maybe 20 seconds, perhaps even 30 seconds, but either of that is good enough for me. If you don't think a 10-30 seconds fight is good enough, then we just have different methodology, so we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Okay.

Originally posted by Scizard
https://youtu.be/tpLiiD1Gsjk?t=152

Maul > Savage >= Ventress > Ventress injured > Anakin and Obi-Wan > Dooku confirmed

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
In other words, this is just a contrived repetition of "NOPE, NOPE, YOU DID IT, YOU DID IT!!" whilst not understanding what I am saying.

Oh and when Maul and Kenobi's fight on the cargo ship, on Florrum, was actually a lot wider and more spacious than the cave, so you're incorrect.

Both fights they were in close quarters and you cannot deny that. Also, in the first fight they were fighting in such close quarters their sabers were hitting things around them during the fight. LOL. 😱

Originally posted by McP
Maul > Savage >= Ventress > Ventress injured > Anakin and Obi-Wan > Dooku confirmed

🙂

Originally posted by juggernaut74
You are making stuff up there is no way to sugar coat it.

Both fights they were in close quarters and you cannot deny that. Also, in the first fight they were fighting in such close quarters their sabers were hitting things around them during the fight. LOL. 😱

I'm not making anything up though, so quit spouting.

Both fights were in different types of environments and you cannot deny. In Maul's 1v1 with Kenobi on Florrum, they spent quite a lot of that fight fighting on the ground, before even fighting on the ship, which was much wide than the tunnel/cave that the fought in, and since when did the lightsabers hit anything in that 1v1?

Good fighters make adjustments so quit making fairy tales.