The Jedi Religion

A few final points before I leave this non-debate. And please read right to the bottom cos that's where I sum it up in my own words.

But such arguments as given by RC make it virtually impossible to talk about religion at all.

You say this excuses you for following any religion. I agree with you.

Religion has always and will always be an emotive issue (Yes I do LOVE that word!!!) Wars have been fought over it, people have been put to death over it, people have even taken their own lives over it

The fact that I have no firm religious beliefs is a testement to my wish to be open to many religious views. Maybe the Christians have a point, maybe it's the buddists or the hindu's or maybe it's some forgotten tribe out in the forests somewhere. I am open to all of these, though I understand some less than others and I would never claim to have any in depth understanding of any one.

I think my comments may have been taken out of context to a certain degree. I am more than happy to listen to and try to understand anyone religion, even yours queeq🙂 , but my referral to "In your face religion" merely pointed to the door knockers, who we see very frequently in my area, who knock on your door and try and sell you religion like a new mop. They get the same reaction from me and the double glazing sales man, which is normally to close the door in their face. I'm in my home, if I want religion at that time I will pick up a copy of the bible, or switch to the GOD or Inspiration channels on TV or even use the internet to find what I need.

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT
Please don't think I am closed off to religion, I merely have no one religion that provides me with the answers I seek. Yes I believe in the higher purpose, call that God if you will, but whether that is the Christian God, is it Buddah, is it in the words of Muhammad or is it in the many aspects of Hinsuism??? I really do not know, and therein is my problem, I just don't kno0w and if I don't know how could I possible put my faith in anything.

PLEASE, PLEASE don't stop discussing religion on my account, I am actually on your side in general, I'm just one of the undecided few.

Incidentally, if anyone out there wants to look at religion in general and to look at the differences and comparrisions in religious views then can I recommend this website, which I always find useful.
www.religioustolerance.org

queeq, to answer your question how one can believe in something and not know what it is.. I don't think everyone needs some outlined backstory to understand the basis of God..and I think some people don't want it, me and (apparently) the Jedi included. As for your comment about religion in the last 40 years...I think that's a rather simplified and somewhat false way to look at it.. It seems to me that there as always been alot of people who haven't really fully embraced a religion..the difference between now and today is that people are more aware of religous alternatives outside their area and live where as in past generations they basically labeled themselves as whatever people around them were labels and took it as a given. It wasn't that they were more religious or behaved better than us..it's just that they had their script down.

I truly agree with RC on the topic of door knockers. I don't want religion, any religion, showing up at my front door whenever it chooses and thrown "in my face". If I feel a sudden urge to study the Jehovahs faith, I'll go to the library, thank you very much. I don't go to Mass every Sunday and even if I did I don't think it would make me "more religious" in any respect. I go when I feel the need to confess, light a candle for someone or when "the spirit moves me". To practice and follow your religion devoutly is admirable, do not doubt, but the forcible infliction of your system of beliefs on others in whatever form, not just door knocking, is wrong. When asked in a previous topic about religion, I posted that I was a catholic, but didn't turn it into a pep rally for the pope. Your faith is intended, I feel, to be food for your soul, to be measured individually (even individually within the same religion) as one requires in different times thoughout ones life. Let's say I go to play a game of softball on a saturday afternoon. I don't think about God all day. Then after the game, after everyone has gone and I'm the last one there and the sun is going down and I watch it filled with color and I am consumed with God in all his blazing glory and I nearly choke on it. That would most likely move me to go to Mass the next day. But if I didn't stay and see all that and say, went out for dinner or out drinking with friends or something, I would probably not be moved. My faith is always there, don't get me wrong, but I actually DIGEST it when I feel my soul NEEDS it. As usual, IMHO. 🙂

I'm sorry to see, dear RC, that you still think I am on personal attack mode. My apologies were, so it seems, not accepted. I tried to generalise the discussion, but unfortunately you took it personally or I failed in the attempt.

Dim, post-war secularisation is enormous. You can't say people are more open to alternative religions, since in our Western world religion has gotten a lot smaller presence. There ARE less believers or people who claim to be religious. And even among those who claim to be religious, make up their own version. Be that as it may, the numbers contradict what you say.

I did not say that one needs to understand the basis of God to have faith. But I wonder if one can actually have faith in something one does not know what it is, not knowing IF it is at all. To say "I believe there is something, but I don't know what"(NOTE: not quoting RC here, I hear this a lot) is IMHO-personal-view-not-attacking-anyone-just-debating-posing-an-opinion-humble-as-it-may-be-can-be-discarded-at-will-just-another-look-at-things-sorry-in-advance-for-any-misunderstandings-stance not faith. It is merely a thought.

Faith has to do with dependance, trust, meaning. If there is nothing to define anything at all, I still hold the opinion that that attitude (still not attacking anyone) is merely thought and not faith.

OK, I see that point but that is, as you quite right pointed out, your opinion, based, I would imagine, on your particular religious convictions.

Each persons faith is found within and, therefore, the statement you made, whilst true for you, may not be true for anyone else. I believe the definition that Raz posted earlier would also bare this out.

I didn't feel personally attacked as much as that certain elements of what I had said where being taken to stand on their own rights when they could only stand it considered within the greater whole of my text.

I am 100% for religious tolerance: That being the right of every individual to practice their own religious beliefs, however I do not believe that anyone should be forced to accept the religion of another just because the other thinks they should. Not that I am saying that anyone here is trying to do that.

It isn't wrong to express no particular religious belief and the statement of knowing there is something but to what is made by agnoctics throughout the world possibly as often as the loads prayer is said by christians. Does the agnostic not have as much right the their belief as the christian? To discard it as "merely a thought" is to insult their belief.

If the agnostic were to discount Jesus or God then would the christian feel agrieved at that. A true agnostic will never do that, though an aetheist may.

See, I knew this could become a healthy debate!!!

Okay you tolerance freaks out there. Let's see how tolerant you really are, since I think you are deceiving yourselves on your religious tolerance.

Let's take your beloved Jehova's Witnesses. I am not one, so rest assured. I will not feel personally attacked in any way.

Jehova's Witnesses see it as their reilgious task you spread the Word of God to everyone. They see it as a compulsory task to go door by door to tell you what they believe. Now you see that you don't want anythings pushed in your face. You want them NOT to knock on your door, you want them gone and never to return again. How tolerant is that? I'll tell you: it's not.
Now, I think they can be pretty annoying, but if you say you REALLY are tolerant, you'd say: pardon, but I have no interest in what you have to tell me. I wish you well.
Brushing them off means you're intolerant. You want to be left alone by them because you leave them alone. That sounds like indifference to me, IMHO-OC-another-view-not-attacking-anyone-nothing-personal-just-a-view etc.

'Tolerance freaks'... is it just me, or does that sound wrong?

Now we've touched on anohter subject, with the meaning of tolerance. It's quite a wide ranging word. In the end, when people talk of ebing tolerant it comes down to this:

People can do what they like, within well-defined common sense boundaries.

That may sound hypocritical, but you;ve got to have your boundaries somewhere.And that can range from the 'you have no right to psychotically murder me', all the way down to 'you have no right to spread the word of God into my face like that.'

In a literal sense, this isn't tolerance, of course. But practically speaking, it's how tolerance must work, and it;s better than any other option.

But if you want it said... in truth, no-one is 100% tolerant, on any subject. The idea is ludicrous, you'd have to approve absolutely anything. And once you accept that tolerance must have boundaries... well it gets very complex from thereon in.

But I don't think anyone need feel bad for this small amount of hypocrisy in altruistic thought.

Wise words, Ush. Exactly my point. So who sets the boundaries? It does get tricky from here on. If one believes in a higher being who knows all, sees all etc. He could set them. He'd be the only one who could. But since he's gone it's all rather complicated. Each his own I guess, do what is good in thine own eyes.

So, religion. Jedi as a religion on earth in the non-movie world. Is that possible?

I really don't think so. The Star Wars movies, as a moral tale, have a brilliant get-out clause in the form of the Force. The whole Jedi concept doesn't work without it. In the end, all you can be is a nice person, and in so many ways that falls flat of the Jedi concept.

Yes, it is rather flimsy. But it works in the movie because you can do so many magic tricks using the Force.

Queeq, you have picked up on one religious aspect, that I'm not sure your facts are 100% on anyway and used that as your entire arguement. That is just a little too flimsy for my liking.

The Jehovahs witnesses are merely a denomination within the Christian religion, their movement is less that 150 years old and I do object to their methods. The methods they employ are not so much based on the Christain religion but on the teachings on one man, Charles Russell and his view on how they should spread their word. As far as them practicing their worship, that's not an issue, but when they come onto my property and try and preach it to me, usually at the most inconvenient times then I do object.

This has NOTHING to do with any kind of religious intollerance, but everything to do with my right to practice my own beliefs and to enjoy the privacy of my own home. In fact, I would like to point out that it's the fact that they are Jehovahs Witnesses but that they turn up unannounced and expect me to listen. It's not just religious cold callers who get the door slam from me, I do not allow ANY cold callers to talk with me on my doorstep. And NO I do not what an damned Double Glazing. 😂

As to the NZ Jedi, i do not believe they have any case, and should the governement try to prosecute then I believe they should get all that is coming to them. To state that they are A Jedi or The Force is a falsehood based upon an email, they ahve nothing demonstarble to show this religion and therefore they have commited a crime.

Maybe it's a good idea not to get too bogged down in specifics; we'd need an entire forum to discuss the subject then. But I think we're in general agreement on the NZ rumour thing; when GL made Star Wars into a moral tale, I'm pretty sure this wasn't the result he wanted.

I can deal. I just don't want to be painted as the bad guy just foir how I choose to lve my life. What's next, burned at the stake???😂

So, not only are you intolerant towards certain demoninations, you also show little hospitality. Just face it RC, that IS intolerance. I do not judge you for it, I don't think tolerance is bad per se. I myself cannot accept for instance a concept like JIHAD, a holy war to destroy everything does is not sharing your religion, like the muslims have. Is that kind of intolerance of mine bad? Judge for yourselves.

Why NOT dedicate a whole thread to this, Ush? I kinda like it.

Well, I said we'd need a whole new FORUM to properly discuss it, and that wasn't an error.

Look, I'm pretty sure we're agreeing far more than we are disagreeing.

1. People can believe what they want
2. They aren't always right about it
3. Such belief can easily bring forth bad or good things, depending on the circumstances.
4. All things must have limits
5. People are fallible.

That's what it all comes down to.

I had this long old reply here but I have deleted it because it has become personal and I no longer feel I can contribute without it becoming more persaonl.

I stand by everything I've said, but to have words put in my mouth becasue I don't "conform" is the exact kind of intolorance I can't deal with.

Comform? Who said anything about comforming. Be what you think is wise.

So a religion FORUM. Hmmmm, wonder if Raz would appreciate a battle field on his site. 😂

I understand RC's frustrations...

As for a religous forum..I think it could be a possiblity if and when the board got ALOT bigger..right now the GDF can handle these topics just fine.

OKay too bad.

And I understand RC's frustration as well. After all, it's ME. 😂

queeq, you continue to believe that I have this personal vendetta against you. I have no idea why, but please get it out of your system cos you are wronmg on that at least.

Maybe in time you'll understand.....