So you think these guys are doing good business:
https://m.soundcloud.com/biglouinsurance/big-lou-insurance-wife
Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, I noted that you only became critical of Politico after you went full Trump-y, early-mid 2018, before they were a valid source you've used and had no problem others using as factual. So we disagree on timeframe about 9-12 months.As for the rest, not playing your DDM games.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's your original point:"Odd, because you have praised them before for their rating of:
"Overall, we rate Politico Least Biased based on balanced coverage of news stories and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record." -snip"
Which is completely not true. I never praised them.
I'll die on this hill proudly because I was clearly critical of Politco about 2 years ago before you tried to make this weird point about Politico.
Let's make it easy on you. Quote any post where I praised Politco. Any post at all. Provide the permalink to it, as well.
Well, I stand corrected - Trump did react similar to Obama...but with far less authority.
More like he was talking to toddlers and he was tired of their misbehavior:
Originally posted by dadudemondude, the interviewers are so cringy.......
Well, I stand corrected - Trump did react similar to Obama...but with far less authority.More like he was talking to toddlers and he was tired of their misbehavior:
Serious talk here, let’s step back and put each other’s political affiliations/inclinations/loyalties/etc aside.
Let us all admit Trump was an idiot and could have reacted faster.
But let us also admit that many world leaders (including Trump) were misled by China and the WHO (the “panel of experts” for crises like this). The real culprits.
These taunting games towards each other for political gotcha’s during a worldwide pandemic (to those who believe that the threat of ncov is real and serious)/worldwide economic shutdown (to those who don’t) make me lose hope in humanity.
I really hope at least we can do that?
Or is KMC just not the place where ppl of different beliefs can agree with each other? 🙁
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Serious talk here, let’s step back and put each other’s political affiliations/inclinations/loyalties/etc aside.Let us all admit Trump was an idiot and could have reacted faster.
But let us also admit that many world leaders (including Trump) were misled by China and the WHO (the “panel of experts” for crises like this). The real culprits.
These taunting games towards each other for political gotcha’s during a worldwide pandemic (to those who believe that the threat of ncov is real and serious)/worldwide economic shutdown (to those who don’t) make me lose hope in humanity.
I really hope at least we can do that?
Or is KMC just not the place where ppl of different beliefs can agree with each other? 🙁
People love political tribalism in America, because the system encourages it (even though old Washington deplored it). Confirmation bias prevents most people from changing sides when presented with evidence. This isn't really any different than debating comic book characters or Star Wars ones; people analyze evidence based on their prejudices and throw out anything which contradicts their worldview.
There's no reasonable method of achieving 'agreement', and a middle ground stance is a fallacy at best. So the side with the greater argument and better evidence may be more objectively correct, it will never achieve anything other than provocation by the lesser side.
A few things:
1. Trump's inaction or wrongdoing is transparent given the evidence. We can review his own words, from news clips, twitter, press conferences, etc. Wikipedia has an entire article dedicated to his routine falsehoods and shifting stances, of which his behavior on this pandemic is but a small part. The man is a self-congratulating liar, who soaks up conservative news from Fox and OAN as gospel, repeats it to his followers without understanding or analyzing it himself, and in turn they give his unfounded beliefs more weight by agreeing with him and feeding his ego.
Trump is the kind of guy who, had he been on KMC ages ago, would have argued Supershadow info as fact in SWVF and flamed anyone who would have disagreed even when the website was ultimately debunked.
2. Evidence of China's mishandling of the epidemic is less transparent, because much of their inner workings aren't revealed to us. It's very much a fact that China is, to put it politely, a shitty shitty authoritative state with a scary leader who is fully capable of hiding the truth, using large economic pressure to compel others into accepting their point of view. The latter already happens when it comes to Taiwan, or human rights abuses.
The problem is, even proved wrongdoing on China's part can only account for so much of the issue before it becomes unreasonable to place all blame on them. The nature of the pandemic was evident to the CDC as early as December (which their website reflects), and the WHO made statements and had boots on the ground from January on. The knowledge of the pandemic and the need for concern was present even despite China's agenda, and therefore Trump cannot claim ignorance except by choice.
Also, using China as a scapegoat is a huge case of Whataboutism.
whataboutism[ hwuht-uh-bou-tiz-uhm, wuht‐, hwot‐, wot‐ ]
noun
a conversational tactic in which a person responds to an argument or attack by changing the subject to focus on someone else’s misconduct, implying that all criticism is invalid because no one is completely blameless:
Whataboutism is a favorite argument of modern day Conservatives, because its' easier to accuse other people of reprehensible behavior and therefore deflect from one's own rather than justify it to the people who are hurt by it. This is why whenever Fox News gargles Trump's balls after he puts his foot in his mouth, they invariably go "But what about Obama? What about Hillary? What about the alt left?"
The problem with this line of bullshit is that the wrongdoings of someone else don't excuse or mitigate one's own. Trump and his right wing allies are perfectly content being hypocrites and liars, because they are constantly using this tactic along with claiming all news but what favors them is 'Fake News'. The fact that most Americans can't see through this tactic is, frankly, more depressing than I can express.
3. The WHO's responsibility is also less clear or evident, and I'd argue not on the line here. Conservative news has made it a huge point to point fingers and drag them through the mud because they're easy targets. The WHO doesn't have any executive or compelling power, relies on the cooperation of its member states, and has been the scapegoat of most modern outbreaks, including ebola, SARS, and so on.
You call them the 'real culprits', and this phrase has an underlying meaning of them being 'responsible'. The problem is that they are a reactive body, relying on the full cooperation of others to achieve their goals. They can give all the evidence they'd like, recommendations, what-have-you, and be completely ignored. The WHO is ultimately reliant on the member states to be effective, which is why the WHA exists.
Now, I could accept them being culprits of any kind if they sabotaged or withheld critical information in an attempt to harm the public for personal gain, or petty politics. I could accept them being culprits if they were found grossly negligent in their duties or grossly inept.
I cannot hold them accountable when they have, as I've shown repeatedly before, been frank and honest about the outbreak and made information readily available.
They called COVID-19 a big deal and a serious threat long before Trump came onboard with it even being a pandemic, and the CDC also was onboard long before, the latter being an American institution which is a collection of experts on this very issue.
The idea that the WHO and China are the real culprits, and Trump is somehow equally or less guilty is not favored by the evidence here. So there's no reason to cling to the delusion.
-- On February 25, Trump said, "I think that whole situation will start working out. We're very close to a vaccine."
-- In an interview with Sean Hannity on March 4, Trump also claimed that the death rate published by the WHO was false, that the correct fatality rate was less than 1 percent, and said, "Well, I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number" [...] that the potential impact of the outbreak was exaggerated by Democrats plotting against him, and that it was safe for infected individuals to go to work. In a later tweet, Trump denied that he had made claims regarding infected individuals going to work, contrary to footage from the interview
--On March 2, Trump told the media that he had heard that a COVID-19 vaccine would be available in "a matter of months", with "a year [being] an outside number", after Trump attended a discussion where his senior health official Anthony Fauci told him this process would take "a year to a year and a half" (at a minimum, Fauci later said). During that discussion, Trump repeatedly quizzed the leaders of pharmaceutical companies on the time needed to produce vaccines, stating "I like the sound of a couple of months better". The length of time required is due to regulatory bodies requiring multiple rounds of tests before vaccines being approved for the public's use.
-- On March 4, Trump blamed the Barack Obama administration for making "a decision" that delayed COVID-19 testing by the Trump administration. The policy in question had never been modified by the Obama administration, despite plans to do so. The policy's overall legal roots date to 2004, before the Obama administration. Under the umbrella of Emergency Use Authorizations, the old policy stated that laboratory-developed tests "should not be used for clinical diagnoses without FDA's approval, clearance, or authorization during an emergency declaration". However, this policy was historically treated as a recommendation and generally unenforced, with no clear legal authority of the FDA in this area. The Trump administration continued to require laboratories to apply to the FDA for approval, but allowed the laboratories to test while the FDA processed the applications.
-- Trump made various false, misleading, or inaccurate statements related to the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic, such as "...we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine" (Jan. 22, 2020), "Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away" (Feb. 10), and "Anybody that wants a test can get a test" (March 6).
-- Trump denied responsibility for his Administration's disbanding of the US Pandemic Response Team headed by Rear Adm. R. Timothy Ziemer in 2018.
-- After weeks of minimizing the outbreak and mocking concern over it, on March 17, Trump stated, "I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic."
Originally posted by NibedicusThis post still puts China to blame....
Serious talk here, let’s step back and put each other’s political affiliations/inclinations/loyalties/etc aside.Let us all admit Trump was an idiot and could have reacted faster.
But let us also admit that many world leaders (including Trump) were misled by China and the WHO (the “panel of experts” for crises like this). The real culprits.
These taunting games towards each other for political gotcha’s during a worldwide pandemic (to those who believe that the threat of ncov is real and serious)/worldwide economic shutdown (to those who don’t) make me lose hope in humanity.
I really hope at least we can do that?
Or is KMC just not the place where ppl of different beliefs can agree with each other? 🙁
My point isn’t a “middle ground argument”. It is a call to look at the facts objectively and to assign the blame where it really belongs. It is not about “who has the better argument”, that in is actually the problem here. Ppl refuse to admit to being wrong so they double down. Confirmation bias. To get to the truth, we need to eliminate tribalism and look at the facts and just the facts. I know this is practically impossible for most cases. But at least we should try.
1. You like to say “inaction” and “wrongdoing” but use tweets and what he says during press conferences to attribute your blame. I feel you are focusing on the wrong things. Actions are: travel bans/restrictions, construction of medical facilities, implementation of quarantines/social distancing, acquisition of medical supplies/PPE and distribution thereof. Even moreso: China’s ACTIONS and denial of the virus’ ability for animal-to-human transmissions, attempts to silence whistleblowers who warned against it, directions to their state controlled media to hide and downplay the virus and the fact that they haven’t completly clamped down on their animal-cruelty markets (w/c may have been the source of SARS and ncov). THOSE are the type of actions (or inactions) that matter here. Not Trump’s troll-y tweets. I am, of course, willing to listen to some facts you would lay out in his lack of action in this area but you must forgive me if I (and the rest of the world) do not take his last tweets and press trolling as a serious argument here if we want to talk about who is really to blame.
2. This isn’t about whataboutism but about putting the blame where it belongs. I can argue that scapegoating Tump IS the whattaboutism the WHO and China is doing to escape blame and they accomplish this thru the US leftist media (and the media does it because it aligns with their agenda to get their audience good and mad and hooked to their TVs). But that is not the point.
This is about assigning proper blame where it belongs. If you look at my post it actually acknowledges blame on Trump’s stupidity, not to distract away from it. Aka. NOT whatabouttism.
3. The problem with your timeline is that you NEED to chronologically align that same timeline with the WHO recommendations to world governments, the various governments’ reactions and THEN compare it to Trump’s -actions- not words. The purpose would be to establish global reaction/perception of the virus and what was considered the best course of action at the time. Then compare Trump’s actions.
Simply putting Trump’s dumb words in a timeline DOES give you some fun “gotchas” for Trump being dumb and saying dumb things (while some would say his words were just simply naive/foolish hopeful optimism or words to calm a scared population, depending on how you see it) but it does establish any kind of fault here if you’re going for the coronavirus response.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying you need to add onto the information and evidence you provided before you can make a convincing “blame argument” with regards to covid response (unless that is not what you are doin? I tend to tunnel vision on points so if I missed your point, please reiterate it. I apologize in advance if I made that mistake).
Anyway, here is my timeline:
https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/amp/
These have clear timelines of China’s actual actions and what the WHO recommended to world leaders. Although it is cut a little short and does not move into after March.
They are not just a reactionary body, they are the “panel of experts” the world and its leaders look to in instances like this. Again, you need to look at how the world governments reacted to the virus. DID they follow WHO recommendations OR did they scoff at it and went about with their business? Did Trump do so? Chonologize it. THAT would then be a convincing “blame argument”.
I cannot speak for the US, I can howevever speak for my country as I have been glued to the screen since end of Jan for any news regarding ncov. I can say that the virus came late here. But can also say that on the same day that WHO continued to recommend against travel bans, my country contiuned to maintain that they were following WHO guidelines and that travel bans will not be put into place (making me want to punch my TV everytime they say it).
A little over a week later, the first ncov cases started being reported on. Almost all the first cases were travelers coming from ncov hit areas. Travel bans were then put into place, too little too late. Now we lead SE Asia in number of cases, I cannot blame Trump for my country’s slow reaction and refusal to implement travel bans while the window was still open to stop the virus from coming. I can, however, very much so blame China and the WHO.