Originally posted by juggernaut74
Dooku fights on a different level while drinking wine so I still stand by my stance.Dooku wins without spilling his wine. Now if he had beer it might be a different story.
Thats fine but Point being your stance has zero basis to it.
Whilst my rebuttal was based on the evidences that ive brought up.
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Your evidence is faulty.
I can bring more, but you need to give proper rebuttals.
And you never actually brought Any Evidence for your case of No Wine spilling (which I believe ive already debunked). Keeping a glass of wine in one hand without spilling it during a fight is a >>> Task than watching out for a second inferior opponent.
Originally posted by Darth ThorSomebody already debunked your evidence but you for some reason isgnored their post.
I can bring more, but you need to give proper rebuttals.And you never actually brought Any Evidence for your case of No Wine spilling (which I believe ive already debunked). Keeping a glass of wine in one hand without spilling it during a fight is a >>> Task than watching out for a second inferior opponent.
BTW I used evidence of Dooku fighting a dangerous foe one on one without spilling his wine and you used evidence of a fight while Dooku was fighting multiple foes.
Originally posted by juggernaut74
1)Somebody already debunked your evidence but you for some reason isgnored their post.2)BTW I used evidence of Dooku fighting a dangerous foe one on one without spilling his wine and you used evidence of a fight while Dooku was fighting multiple foes.
1) Relentless? I shall go back and address it if you like, but it hardly qualifies as debunking.
2) Given Maul is greater than than the opponents Dooku was facing in both cases I dont see the relevance. And if there is any you havent made the case.
Also again Opress dropped Dooku on his own whilst Ventress was temporarily dropped. But that shouldnt be an issue for someone who can apparently Best Maul One handed without spilling wine, let alone Opress.
Originally posted by relentless1
1)ok but styles make matches as does location and several other factors, its been established already that Dookus Makashi style has a huge problem with highly kinetic aka strong hitting duelists, Savage knocking Dooku around was down to him being physically superior to Dooku not technically superior and maul isn't on that level of strength so your point about Savage smacking him around is kind of moot.2)also take into consideration the tight maneuvering area they were fighting in and the fact that Assajj was there primarily as a combatant against Dooku as well; Sidious managed to make short work of BOTH bros at the same time but he had lots of room to maneuver
3)Obi Wan was able to cripple Savage in very tight quarters, are you saying he's stronger than Dooku or more skilled than the guy who routinely wipes the floor with him??
4)Fact is that Dooku has a fighting style that specifically goes after other duelists, he's got much more knowledge in the force as observed in the fact that he can utilize FL, he was able to hold his own with Yoda and gain a favourable outcome, something Maul and his brother weren't able to accomplish against Yodas equal
5)All evidence points to a win for Dooku
1) Maul isnt on that level of strength? Clearly youve missed the comic where Maul has grappled with Rathtars. Kindly provide a superior physical feat by Opress before making that claim.
But even IF Opress is slightly stronger, the point isnt moot at all given Maul is massively more skilled, and clearly a physical beast in his own right. And as you have already conceded, that gives Dooku major trouble. So if anything any comparison to how easily Dooku deals with Ventress is moot. And Opress is the better comparison.
In actual fact for Maul imagine someone more skilled than Ventress, who is almost as strong as Opress, and then tell me how easily Dooku would handle that.
2) If anything that helped Dooku fight them one at a time.
3) The fact that Obi-Wan was able to handle them in a tight space, only shows its advantageous when fighting multiple opponents and doesnt really help Dookus case at all.
Id actually say the Saber battle was more impressive by Kenobi given he did not have superior force abilities to aid him, he was fighting a far superior duo, and he actually was having to fight both at the same time. That said wielding dual Sabers clearly aided him with fighting both.
4) You dont think Yoda could have smacked Dooku and Ventress around? But yes he has superior force powers, I havent denied that. Not sure FL is gonna give him the win here though.
5) Well not ALL evidence, but I agree thats the likely outcome (but After a very tough fight) and did not argue otherwise.
^
That's are some silly evidences by you, after all these years.
Yes, it's a sounds very naive to believe that Dooku would not split his win during duel with Maul. But, to be honest, it might be true. Dooku may just has, lets say, a bag with a bottle of wine, there is a huge chances, that it wont be spilled.
Anyway, DP, reaching for Opress hir is just poor. His showings in S3, not only against Dooku, were war above anything he has shown in S4 or S5, while cannonicaly he became only stronger.
S3: overhelming Dooku, overhelming Anakin and Obi-Wan combined twice, overhelming Ventress, stomping a jedi master without using a lightsaber.
S4: barely gaining a small advantage over Ventress, stomping Kenobi by suprise. Something else?
S5. being stomped by Maul, being beaten by Kenobi while supported by Maul, being stomped by Sidious, having a good fight against Adi Galia which he only won by far superior physcial strenght and endurance.
He was retconed from season to season. His showings were worse and worse with each season. And while Obi-Wan had a chance to fight him in S5, he could somehow clear himself from that shame. Dooku couldn't. But I'm pretty sure, that he would stomp Opress in S5.
It's a very similar situation to what happends in the old CW; when many jedi masters were a victims of Hypori!Grievous. Good thing is, that GL put Grievous in his place. So did TCW (still a not so good show tbh). And even after Hypori, Grievous is retconed in season 2 of CW and in LoE. It's how it works.
And Opress showing has nothing to duel between Maul and Dooku. And after all, Maul has a lot more of shaming moments then Dooku tbh.
Right first of all, if you want a serious response then dont start by claiming all the evidences ive provides are silly. Because they are not, you just dont like them.
Next I dont buy that Opress power was retconned. Retconned to what from what? He never actually defeated Dooku or Anakin or Obi-Wan, the most he managed was fling them around.
Was him beating Ventress retconned? Nope. In fact the very next episode (when both Obi-Wan and Maul stomped him), he killed a Jedi Council member.
Point being his strengths (his physical strength, raw force power and unorthodox brute warrior skills) have given Dooku trouble. And this isnt Opress vs Dooku, its Maul vs Dooku. Given Maul himself is a physical beast, but an extremely skilled one, then unless it is another PIS/CIS moment for Maul (unlikely against an opponent like this), theres very little doubt Dooku will have a hard time beating Maul.
And sure he may stomp in 2/10 fights. But both fighting at thy sir best, Dooku will not have an Easy time at all. Remember he only took Kenobi out with the Force and Maul at this stage is better in that department, plus being a more offensive fighter, wont give Dooku the same opportunities to Force stomp him.
Btw for further evidence Nick Gillard claimed they are both Level 8 Saber duelists.
Originally posted by Darth ThorDooku didn't spill his wine against Ventress who herself would give Maul hell.
1) Relentless? I shall go back and address it if you like, but it hardly qualifies as debunking.2) Given Maul is greater than than the opponents Dooku was facing in both cases I dont see the relevance. And if there is any you havent made the case.
Also again Opress dropped Dooku on his own whilst Ventress was temporarily dropped. But that shouldnt be an issue for someone who can apparently Best Maul One handed without spilling wine, let alone Opress.
Dooku wins without spilling his wine.
@DP
Buddy, I read your posts here from like a 10 years or more lol. And those in that thread are silly. You weren't one of those people who use A>B>C logic, you had always a great points. Perhaps it's a frustration from what Disney did to Maul, idk.
I wasn't the one that said that Dooku would stomp Maul. Well, I bielieve that Dooku would has a far greater majority. As you said, perhaps some of those fights, like 1-2 would be close to be like stomp. Or more likely just seemed to be like stomp. But I doubt, that someone of Maul's caliber would be stomped by anyone besides Sidious, Talzin, Yoda or primeROTS Anakin.
Yes, on a paper, he was never retconed. But he's stated to be more and more powerful. It's clear that S5 Opress would smash/beat S3 Opress. But again, his showings are far inferior, which actualy means that is was retconed on screen. He's not capable of doing things like he used to. He was able to thrown Dooku, Ventress, Anakin or Obi-Wan on the walls. Dooku coulnd't even hold a lighstaber after blocking his strikes. Ventress coulnd't block them. And what happened after that? In their 2v2 it's Obi-Wan and Maul that are MVPs of their teams. Obi-Wan no longer struggles when blocking Opress blows, Adi Gallia is capable of blicking his blows. And while Dooku's Makashi might be inferior to strong, kinetic attacks, he's the one that blocked Anakin and Obi-Wan in saber lock using one hand. And on another saberlock, he overpowered both of them at once. It's why he's the victim of that shitty S3 Opress. If Ventress wouldn't met Opress during S4, you could as well say, that she's unable to even block his strikes. And well, she is after S4.
And Dooku's last fight against Anakin and Obi-Wan in TCW rather shows that Dooku was faster and more agile then Maul (during a fight).
About Gillard... well, he also said, that there are differences in tiers as well. I mean level 8 might be > level 8. After TCW Dooku has some shaming showings, but still his finest are superior to Maul's, he did far better against Obi-Wan, Ventress, his duel with Yoda was impressive as hell, as (basing on script) even Sidious was overhelmed by his little green friend in a swordplay.
Anyway, the fact that Maul was able to react and even managed to kick Sidious is also impressive as hell. I agree that Maul is overall stronger then Kenobi, at least in the Force. His Force-guard is possibly superior, and there was implied by Lucas, that Kenobi wouldn't be able to even compete with Sidious. Maul could.
Originally posted by McP
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No, Ashoka was't on par with Vader. If you want to go this way, then Obi-Wan was on par with Vader, and Maul got stomped by him. That cannot be prove, that Maul is > Dooku.
Here’s the light sabre duel above Vader had to resort to force push to get her out of the way but then she for him back ran towards him at the end and skimmed half his helmet of : it seems she sort of got the upper hand ... she stood her ground well against Vader I reckon ... What do you reckon ?
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That doesn't prove anything, and I still consider it as Vader's superior feat. Besides a few early seconds of that fight, Vader was all the time in leading position, unlike Ben, Ashoka was barely holding her own. It was quite different then her duel with Maul. And Ashoka and Vader were somehow bonded, as he was her teacher. It was like with Dooku and Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin. Despite the difference in skill, a dudel between master and student is nearly always somehow... longer, more equal looking.
Anyway, following your logic, Vader=Ben>>Maul is still more valind point.