Originally posted by Lord Stark
Again, Mace thought it was fully possible Maul was the Sith Master in TPM. That's why he asks 'but which was destroyed the master or the apprentice?'. What changes his mind was sensing the two of them together. Not to mention Obi-Wan, who was there and fought both Maul and Dooku multiple times, seems likely to have contributed to Mace's report.
Sure Maul May have been the Master of an unknown apprentice as of TPM.
But would he be the Master of a 70 year old Ex-Jedi Master, when Maul himself would have only recently been trained?
Pretty unlikely.
If their power was approx on par as of SOD then it would be reasonable to assume Dooku was Mauls Master due to their ages, knowing that Maul was a very young Sith as of TPM.
If Dooku was even slightly more powerful, then even more reason to believe so.
I don't see how Windu's musing that Dooku being the master and Maul being the apprentice indicates a disparity between Dooku and Maul, you could say that it indicates Dooku is > Maul, you could also attribute that musing to Dooku being much older than Maul because masters are typically much older than their apprentices (Mace doesn't even know who Sidious's identity at this point), but I don't think Windu's musing means Dooku >>> Maul because the gaps between masters and their apprentices are not static, they vary.
To me is shows that Windu sensed who was the most powerful of the two.
The Jedi knew for over a decade they were looking for a Sith they didn't know if he was master or apprentice. But they did know it wasn't Dooku they were looking for.
Dooku left the Jedi Order sometime before TPM that just seems to me too short of time for Dooku to have become a Sith master.
Now that I think about it when this story came out Dooku didn't leave the order until after Qui-Gon died.
And if they were approx equal in power who would they assume was the Master?
I mean how would a 20 year old Darth Maul have trained Dooku pre-TPM? Would Maul have taken him on as an Apprentice when he was 16?
And if they sensed Dooku was just slightly more powerful, then adding in the age factor would have made it a no brainer about Dooku being the Master.
Originally posted by Darth ThorYea I realize this. But with all the tats he had it can be hard to see his actual face.
They know a decent amount about Maul, including his species and even which village he came from.Adding to their own research Kenobi has had enough encounters with him to gauge he and Maul are approx the same age.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And if they were approx equal in power who would they assume was the Master?I mean how would a 20 year old Darth Maul have trained Dooku pre-TPM? Would Maul have taken him on as an Apprentice when he was 16?
And if they sensed Dooku was just slightly more powerful, then adding in the age factor would have made it a no brainer about Dooku being the Master.
1. Maul being 22 in TPM isn't canon to my knowledge. He has no established birth year. And canon has retconned Qui-Gon's age from 60 to 48, so Legends isn't reliable here.
2. Dooku became a Sith in 32BBY. Why would there have been a need for him Maul to take him on as an apprentice earlier than that?
The age factor has nothing to do with it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
1. Maul being 22 in TPM isn't canon to my knowledge. He has no established birth year. And canon has retconned Qui-Gon's age from 60 to 48, so Legends isn't reliable here.
2. Dooku became a Sith in 32BBY. Why would there have been a need for him Maul to take him on as an apprentice earlier than that?The age factor has nothing to do with it.
1. Witwer mentioned Rebels Maul in terms of age would be a contemporary of Rebels/ANH Kenobi. And how that was something they thought about. So clearly canon writers/creators see the as they same age as Kenobi. Would you assume Obi-Wan was Qui-Gons apprentice in TPM?
2. Why would Dooku apprentice himself to such a young Sith, unless he was massively inferior to him?
You have no basis to throw age out of the equation. Sure Power would likely be the first factor. But as Yousef has stated, the differential in power is unlikely to stay the same over 10-15years. Aside from that age is definitely a factor.
If Maul did have an apprentice as of TPM, it would be extremely unlikely he would take on a 70 year old, given how the RO2 theoretically works, that when the Master dies the Apprentice takes over from him.
I say theoretically because in Practice we know the Master dies when the Apprentice kills him, but even that isnt always through superior power.
Originally posted by Scizard
Considering that Mace is also quite young for the Jedi Council I'm not sure he'd even consider the age.
Did Mace take on a much older and more experienced Apprentice when he was a young Knight?
Its definitely A Factor, even if its not the no.1 factor. Probably Power first, Age second.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1. Witwer mentioned Rebels Maul in terms of age would be a contemporary of Rebels/ANH Kenobi. And how that was something they thought about. So clearly canon writers/creators see the as they same age as Kenobi. Would you assume Obi-Wan was Qui-Gons apprentice in TPM?
That doesn't really mean anything. Kenobi was 25 in TPM which means Maul could be anywhere from 25 to 30. Also, keep in mind if he's 25 he's older than Darth Vader was in ROTS when he was already plotting to become the Sith Master.
2. Why would Dooku apprentice himself to such a young Sith, unless he was massively inferior to him?
If Maul were more powerful and knew more of the Dark Side who cares? Dooku apprenticed himself to Palpatine who was younger than him and was killed by Anakin when Anakin was 22. If 22-year-old Darth Vader were the Sith Master, Dooku would absolutely be the apprentice because Anakin is stronger.
You have no basis to throw age out of the equation. Sure Power would likely be the first factor. But as Yousef has stated, the differential in power is unlikely to stay the same over 10-15years. Aside from that age is definitely a factor.
Yes I do. You have zero basis that a stronger Sith would apprentice themself to a weaker one due to age. Even with the Jedi who aren't strength-based, Mace Windu was already on the Jedi Council and Master of the Order even though he was younger than some Jedi by centuries. Why would he factor age in?
If Maul did have an apprentice as of TPM, it would be extremely unlikely he would take on a 70 year old, given how the RO2 theoretically works, that when the Master dies the Apprentice takes over from him.
That would be a great point if it weren't for the fact that Dooku already apprenticed himself to someone 20 years his junior. The same exact argument could be applied to Sidious considering the massive age gap between the two. +Even with he age gap Sidious was still concerned Dooku would surpass him because his power continued to grow during the Clone War.
I say theoretically because in Practice we know the Master dies when the Apprentice kills him, but even that isnt always through superior power.
The Sith are always 'strongest rule' that is their mantra. It's up to you to prove that Mace Windu and Kenobi used age to determine that Dooku was the master. You haven't done that yet so gonna go with the simplest explanation here that Mace & Kenobi sensed the two of them and concluded Dooku was more powerful and thus the master.
Like I said earlier, it seems unlikely that a Jedi of Mace's caliber(of whom routinely use the Force to gauge the power in their opponents), would have just looked at Maul and Dooku and said: "yeah, Dooku's older so he must be the master."
Age may have played a factor in Mace's deduction before he delivered his report to Palpatine, but it was likely secondary to the power he sensed in them. Imo.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
1)That doesn't really mean anything. Kenobi was 25 in TPM which means Maul could be anywhere from 25 to 30. Also, keep in mind if he's 25 he's older than Darth Vader was in ROTS when he was already plotting to become the Sith Master.2)If Maul were more powerful and knew more of the Dark Side who cares? Dooku apprenticed himself to Palpatine who was younger than him and was killed by Anakin when Anakin was 22. If 22-year-old Darth Vader were the Sith Master, Dooku would absolutely be the apprentice because Anakin is stronger.
3)Yes I do. You have zero basis that a stronger Sith would apprentice themself to a weaker one due to age. Even with the Jedi who aren't strength-based, Mace Windu was already on the Jedi Council and Master of the Order even though he was younger than some Jedi by centuries. Why would he factor age in?
4)That would be a great point if it weren't for the fact that Dooku already apprenticed himself to someone 20 years his junior. The same exact argument could be applied to Sidious considering the massive age gap between the two. +Even with he age gap Sidious was still concerned Dooku would surpass him because his power continued to grow during the Clone War.
5)The Sith are always 'strongest rule' that is their mantra. It's up to you to prove that Mace Windu and Kenobi used age to determine that Dooku was the master. You haven't done that yet so gonna go with the simplest explanation here that Mace & Kenobi sensed the two of them and concluded Dooku was more powerful and thus the master.
1) The council seems to have done their research on Maul. Otherwise I admit IF Maul was 30, that would be an entirely different case. Confused as to the second point.
2) I never said Maul was more powerful. As to your point regarding Vader, its simple and ive already addressed it. That 22 year old Anakin would not take on Dooku as an Apprentice. Because the Apprentice is supposed to take over from the Master when the Master dies.
3) If he felt he had things to learn from him then he might. For example we know Maul wasnt using Force Lightning. You forgotten Sidious waited to learn everything Plagueis knew before killing him? Youve also forgotten Anakin wasnt going to try and kill Palpatine until he learned how to save Padme.
And Again I never said Maul was stronger. But as Yousef already pointed out, Mace and Kenobi would not assume the power differential to stay the same between Master and Apprentice for 10-15 years. Mace being on the Council at 40 is completely irrelevant given we are discussing the chances of a 20 year old Maul being the Master of an equally or slightly more powerful 70 year old experienced Master. Pretty slim id say.
4) A 70 year old Apprenticing himself to a 50 year old whose massively more powerful and masterful with the Force is a completely moot point to the discussion at hand.
5) Already proven with the Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep example AFTER learning everything he knew of the Force First. Anakin has a similar idea in mind.
And again im not suggesting Maul was more powerful than Dooku. Just that he could have been approx on par maybe slightly below him as of SOD, with potentially a larger power differential as of TPM.
If the 2 Sith are approximately as powerful what would be the determining factor? Knowledge, Mastery, Experience maybe...