Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) The council seems to have done their research on Maul. Otherwise I admit IF Maul was 30, that would be an entirely different case. Confused as to the second point.
Why would 25 and 30 be different?
2) I never said Maul was more powerful. As to your point regarding Vader, its simple and ive already addressed it. That 22 year old Anakin would not take on Dooku as an Apprentice. Because the Apprentice is supposed to take over from the Master when the Master dies.
Again, by the same logic Palpatine would not have taken on Dooku as an apprentice and viewed it possible for him to surpass him. We know both of these aren't true. Not only did he take him on as an apprentice he grew concerned that Dooku's power would surpass his own.
3) If he felt he had things to learn from him then he might. For example we know Maul wasnt using Force Lightning. You forgotten Sidious waited to learn everything Plagueis knew before killing him? Youve also forgotten Anakin wasnt going to try and kill Palpatine until he learned how to save Padme.
And Again I never said Maul was stronger. But as Yousef already pointed out, Mace and Kenobi would not assume the power differential to stay the same between Master and Apprentice for 10-15 years. Mace being on the Council at 40 is completely irrelevant given we are discussing the chances of a 20 year old Maul being the Master of an equally or slightly more powerful 70 year old experienced Master. Pretty slim id say.
Windu was seemingly Master of the Order by 40BBY at 32. He was a member of the Council by 28. So around the same age Maul would have been in TPM assuming he's the same age as Kenobi (25).
4) A 70 year old Apprenticing himself to a 50 year old whose massively more powerful and masterful with the Force is a completely moot point to the discussion at hand.
Why? Because you say so? It proves that the age difference does not matter. Its mastery and knowledge of the force. You have to prove age is the primary factor being considered. Even in the real world 25-year-olds manage 70-year-olds. Idk why it's so hard for you to wrap your head around an immensely powerful force user in their 20s being a master.
5) Already proven with the Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep example AFTER learning everything he knew of the Force First. Anakin has a similar idea in mind.
How does Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep prove he was stronger than Sidious?
And again im not suggesting Maul was more powerful than Dooku. Just that he could have been approx on par maybe slightly below him as of SOD, with potentially a larger power differential as of TPM.If the 2 Sith are approximately as powerful what would be the determining factor? Knowledge, Mastery, Experience maybe...
There's nothing to really suggest that here. I'm just gonna use Occam's razor here. It's way more simple to assume that Mace and Obi-Wan sensing Dooku was the more powerful of the two and concluded he was the master. There's not compelling evidence that Mace and Obi-Wan sensed an overall parity between the two, and then guessed that Dooku was too old to be the apprentice and thus was the master. Tbh if it were the latter I'd imagine Mace's report would be more like "Dooku and Maul are working together, but it's too soon to determine if that means that Dooku is the Sith Master we've been looking for."
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
As of SoD, Maul was 35, Dooku was 83. Maul isn't a young adult like RotS Anakin who is 23, or TPM Maul who was 22, but a 35 year old is relatively young to an 83 year old Dooku.
Where is Maul's birth year established in canon? Anakin is actually 22 in canon not 23. He was born in 41BBY, ROTS takes place in 19BBY.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
1)Why would 25 and 30 be different?2)Again, by the same logic Palpatine would not have taken on Dooku as an apprentice and viewed it possible for him to surpass him. We know both of these aren't true. Not only did he take him on as an apprentice he grew concerned that Dooku's power would surpass his own.
3)Windu was seemingly Master of the Order by 40BBY at 32. He was a member of the Council by 28. So around the same age Maul would have been in TPM assuming he's the same age as Kenobi (25).
4)Why? Because you say so? It proves that the age difference does not matter. Its mastery and knowledge of the force. You have to prove age is the primary factor being considered. Even in the real world 25-year-olds manage 70-year-olds. Idk why it's so hard for you to wrap your head around an immensely powerful force user in their 20s being a master.
5)How does Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep prove he was stronger than Sidious?
6)There's nothing to really suggest that here. I'm just gonna use Occam's razor here. It's way more simple to assume that Mace and Obi-Wan sensing Dooku was the more powerful of the two and concluded he was the master. There's not compelling evidence that Mace and Obi-Wan sensed an overall parity between the two, and then guessed that Dooku was too old to be the apprentice and thus was the master. Tbh if it were the latter I'd imagine Mace's report would be more like "Dooku and Maul are working together, but it's too soon to determine if that means that Dooku is the Sith Master we've been looking for."
1) They are radically different. Because at 22-25 young Obi-Wan and Maul have barely completed their own training. If they killed their Master and took on an apprentice it would likely be a 10-15year old with mad potential like Obi-Wan took on. Perhaps older. But again why on Earth would such a young Sith take on an OAP as their apprentice? That would literally make no logical sense at all. Especially for a Sith.
2) Except we know Palpatine was using Dooku.
3) And Windu is the norm now? Also youve just proven the difference between a 20 and 30 year old. Even in Windus case.
4) And who would have had more experience/force knowledge? 20 year old Maul or 70 year old Dooku? What could a young Maul teach Dooku exactly? We know as a fact theres at least one trick Dooku could teach Maul which is Force Lightning.
5) So Sidious could have been more powerful yet be the Apprentice? Hmm. Its almost as if Sith might want to learn from their Masters before betraying them.
6) Again the fact that no one would believe for a second that a 20 year old Sith Master would take on a 70 year old Master whose power easily rivals his own.
Look fact is Mace mentioned nothing about power. And in his own experience (since you keep bringing up his age), its the older/more experienced Master who teachers the younger less/experienced one.
Lets not forget Dooku commanded a massively larger army so has far more power at his disposal. And Mace makes this assumption right after Maul overpowered him and Secura with the aid superior soldiers.
So Theres literally every logical reason for Maul to be Dookus servant without there being some clear and significant gap in force power between them. But even far as pure knowledge of the dark side goes, until the Jedi see Maul utilise Force Lightning, Maul has more to learn from Dooku than vice versa.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) They are radically different. Because at 22-25 young Obi-Wan and Maul have barely completed their own training. If they killed their Master and took on an apprentice it would likely be a 10-15year old with mad potential like Obi-Wan took on. Perhaps older. But again why on Earth would such a young Sith take on an OAP as their apprentice? That would literally make no logical sense at all. Especially for a Sith.2) Except we know Palpatine was using Dooku.
3) And Windu is the norm now? Also youve just proven the difference between a 20 and 30 year old. Even in Windus case.
4) And who would have had more experience/force knowledge? 20 year old Maul or 70 year old Dooku? What could a young Maul teach Dooku exactly? We know as a fact theres at least one trick Dooku could teach Maul which is Force Lightning.
5) So Sidious could have been more powerful yet be the Apprentice? Hmm. Its almost as if Sith might want to learn from their Masters before betraying them.
6) Again the fact that no one would believe for a second that a 20 year old Sith Master would take on a 70 year old Master whose power easily rivals his own.
Look fact is Mace mentioned nothing about power. And in his own experience (since you keep bringing up his age), its the older/more experienced Master who teachers the younger less/experienced one.
Lets not forget Dooku commanded a massively larger army so has far more power at his disposal. And Mace makes this assumption right after Maul overpowered him and Secura with the aid superior soldiers.So Theres literally every logical reason for Maul to be Dookus servant without there being some clear and significant gap in force power between them. But even far as pure knowledge of the dark side goes, until the Jedi see Maul utilise Force Lightning, Maul has more to learn from Dooku than vice versa.
Not gonna keep going back and forth on this so this is my last post on the matter. Every single age-related argument about Maul can be made about Palpatine. You can say its 'not relevant', but it is. Dooku was an exception even though he was over 70 his power still grew to the point that Palpatine grew weary he'd surpass him. The same would be true regardless if Palpatine was 55 or 25.
There's a reason no one ever thought Sidious was Dooku's apprentice because he's more powerful. When Anakin told Mace he was a Sith Lord, Mace didn't think 'huh, Dooku must have been his master'. Kenobi didn't say to Padme, "After the death of his master Count Dooku, Palpatine made Anakin his apprentice". Why? Because they concluded Sidious was the more powerful Sith and thus the master.
The most simple explanation wins out. If you want to go with 'b-but Dooku had an army and was older, maybe they were even in power, b-but Dooku had Force Lightning' fine, but you should at least admit its more convoluted than the simple explanation that 'Mace and Obi-Wan concluded Dooku was the Sith Master because he was more powerful.'
Originally posted by Galan007
A matter of weeks before TPM, I'd say.
Originally posted by DarthadiThe exact date isn't set in stone, no. Just seemed like the heavy implication is that it was set weeks(maybe a few months) before TPM, imo.
Are you sure about this? That would mean that a random padawan like Eldra Kaitis>Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi which is hard to belive.
I got the impression it was like 2-3 years before TPM.
Anyway, Hidalgo said that the timeline of the comic is not really established iirc.
Aside from the overall depiction of Maul and Palpatine, the opening crawls/intro pages for a few of the issues seem indicative of such:
https://i.imgur.com/iucH2hK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sLYD8fO.jpg
"The moment of revenge is close at hand..."
https://i.imgur.com/0dQQHoA.jpg
"The Jedi's days are numbered..."
And the writer of the series also stated it takes place "shortly before" TPM:
https://i.imgur.com/cGzTpnD.jpg
We also know that by the time of these issues, Palpatine had already allied himself with the Trade Federation:
https://i.imgur.com/eBEAYyH.jpg
And had already set his plans against the Jedi in motion:
https://i.imgur.com/eTONyMj.jpg
I feel like placing it years before TPM is a bit much, but it's certainly open to debate. /shrug
Originally posted by Darthadi
Are you sure about this? That would mean that a random padawan like Eldra Kaitis>Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi which is hard to belive.
I got the impression it was like 2-3 years before TPM.
Anyway, Hidalgo said that the timeline of the comic is not really established iirc.
I mean Barriss gave Anakin Skywalker a good fight. Mature padawans seem to be a match for Knights in terms of combat (see TPM Obi-Wan, AOTC Anakin, S5 Barriss and S7 Ahsoka).
Also Maul seemed a little conflicted in that fight. I think he had the hots for Eldra.
Originally posted by Galan007
The exact date isn't set in stone, no. Just seemed like the heavy implication is that it was set weeks(maybe a few months) before TPM, imo.Aside from the overall depiction of Maul and Palpatine, the opening crawls/intro pages for a few of the issues seem indicative of such:
https://i.imgur.com/iucH2hK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sLYD8fO.jpg
"The moment of revenge is close at hand..."https://i.imgur.com/0dQQHoA.jpg
"The Jedi's days are numbered..."And the writer of the series also stated it takes place "shortly before" TPM:
https://i.imgur.com/cGzTpnD.jpgWe also know that by the time of these issues, Palpatine had already allied himself with the Trade Federation:
https://i.imgur.com/eBEAYyH.jpgAnd had already set his plans against the Jedi in motion:
https://i.imgur.com/eTONyMj.jpgI feel like placing it years before TPM is a bit much, but it's certainly open to debate. /shrug
Maybe a few months just because the writer saying this Maul was younger than any of his on screen appearances. But then he also says Shortly Before, so I agree Years would be pushing it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not gonna keep going back and forth on this so this is my last post on the matter. Every single age-related argument about Maul can be made about Palpatine. You can say its 'not relevant', but it is. Dooku was an exception even though he was over 70 his power still grew to the point that Palpatine grew weary he'd surpass him. The same would be true regardless if Palpatine was 55 or 25.There's a reason no one ever thought Sidious was Dooku's apprentice because he's more powerful. When Anakin told Mace he was a Sith Lord, Mace didn't think 'huh, Dooku must have been his master'. Kenobi didn't say to Padme, "After the death of his master Count Dooku, Palpatine made Anakin his apprentice". Why? Because they concluded Sidious was the more powerful Sith and thus the master.
The most simple explanation wins out. If you want to go with 'b-but Dooku had an army and was older, maybe they were even in power, b-but Dooku had Force Lightning' fine, but you should at least admit its more convoluted than the simple explanation that 'Mace and Obi-Wan concluded Dooku was the Sith Master because he was more powerful.'
No Palpatine was completely different. He was quite aged himself, and more masterful and knowledgeable in the Force and just more powerful on top. Completely moot point.
Kenobi said to Anakin - this is a great honour to be on Council AT YOUR AGE its never been done! So tell me again Age is never a factor and makes no difference whatsoever.
Dooku told Obi-Wan in AOTC that Darth Sidious is the guy in charge. But yes as I keep saying, he was Not Only more powerful, but also More Knowledgable. And not exactly a kid himself either lmao. So I dont get the purpose of such a moot point.
The massive age difference and experience is also a pretty obvious explanation. I mean again, why would a 20 year old Maul take on a 70 year old Apprentice? And why would Dooku whose at least as powerful but more knowledgeable agree to be his apprentice.
Point is if they were close in power as of SOD, but Dooku is older seems to have more Sith powers, and has control of General Grievous and the Droid Army, then there would be no reason to think Maul was the Master. Especially not as a 20 year old. Dooku would be the obvious conclusion.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean Barriss gave Anakin Skywalker a good fight. Mature padawans seem to be a match for Knights in terms of combat (see TPM Obi-Wan, AOTC Anakin, S5 Barriss and S7 Ahsoka).Also Maul seemed a little conflicted in that fight. I think he had the hots for Eldra.
