Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Stoic, this is yours:I have underlined what my quibble is. It actually takes a LOT out if all I am measuring is the magical level. Just like Ares or Hercules would be 1 Herc, it doesn't mean that they're punching with more power than DS merged Sentry, who would punch with 0 Hercs.
Hope was either capable of doing harm to non mythical creatures, or it wasn't. The Hulk was clearly hurt by its attack. The numbers are valid. Deal with it.
Ok, let me try again and explain....
Let's say I am Franklin Richards. I take 133.45 Colossus..es (Colossi?), merge them into one being, and shrink him.
I then put him inside Hulk's lungs. Colossus, being non magic, registers as 0 Hercs.
Based on the Hope feat, and ONLY the Hope feat, does Hulk tank him punching inside him? Colossus of course is weaker than Hercules physically as well.
2nd round: I merge 133.45 Galactuses. Still 0 Hercs, btw - and I do the same with th shrinking etc. Assume strength levels are the same as when full sized.
2 simple questions. Does Merged Colossus do more or less damage than 133.45 mystical units? Does Merged Galactus? They both radiate 0 mystical units, so per your logic, they do much less.
Simply saying 'deal with it' is shit tier debating, tbh. It damaged Hulk, sure.
But not in a way that is physically meaningful for Battleboards.
133.45 Gladiators, or Sentries or 10,000 Gladiators AND Sentries, would still radiate 0 Hercs. Using that showing as proof of Hulk's durability against non magical attacks is meaningless.
Re: Luke Cage vs Thing - READ STIPS!
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A direct comparison between the two. Both characters are hooked up to Dr Cosimo's machine:Now, I know neither Ben nor Luke are mythological characters:
But are Hercs a measure of mystical energy? Or physical energy?
Note that nowhere in the scan does it state a Herc is a measure of physical strength.
I don’t understand why this is complicated. The last scan says one Herc = The maximum amount of energy Herc could expand in one blow.
I read it as 1 Herc = Equivalent to an all out punch from Herc OWAW style.
Speaking from a conceptual point, when you think of Hercules, do you think of physical strength/power or mythical energy? As someone who has read a lot of Greg Paks work, do you think this is physical strength/power wank that is a useful metric in showing off Hulk’s strength relative to Gods in a digestible method?
Never knew Colossus was a mythological person who could radiate the kind of energy that was measurable in Hercs.
People only focus on the last scan, and miss the preceding one, which gives context as to WHAT kind of energy is being measured.
If a person is non mythological/magical, they have 0 Hercs. Simples..
Edit: there you go Stoic, this is what I was referring to, with Rages post.
Originally posted by zopzop
This whole "Herc" unit of measure shows just how stupid Marvel writers are. If it wasn't for the MCU, DC would be laughing their ass off at Marvel's incompetence.
I don't think it's stupid...I actually really like it as a concept. The problem is when us battleboard fans try to shoehorn it into other concepts.
If you're magical/mystical, you have Hercs.
If you're not, you don't. And having fewer or more Hercs mean nothing to physical strength, otherwise a single Ares and Herc output more damage than 10,000 Sentries and Gladiators combined.
Wonderman operates on ionic energy, the same way hulk operates on gamma, and herc on mysticism/mythology power.
1 wonder= the total energy in wonderman's hardest punch
1 verde= the total energy in hulk's hardest punch
1 herc= the total energy in herc's hardest punch
Surely you can measure all of these punches in terms of how much kinetic energy each hit puts out, but it would be foolish to try and measure the ionic energy of the hulk, or the gamma energy of wonder man.
If herc's were a straight line measurement of physical force, wouldnt the hulk be way weaker than baba yaga? He had some percentage of a single herc (which was stated to be as a direct result from exposure to physical force) vs. Yaga's 1.5.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't think it's stupid...I actually really like it as a concept. The problem is when us battleboard fans try to shoehorn it into other concepts.If you're magical/mystical, you have Hercs.
If you're not, you don't. And having fewer or more Hercs mean nothing to physical strength, otherwise a single Ares and Herc output more damage than 10,000 Sentries and Gladiators combined.
That would be exactly what you're attempting to do. As long as you continue to ignore the physical aspect of what a Herc was intended to be a measurement of.
Only True Genuine Mythological Entities Will Register On The Herc Scale. I get this. Can we get past this??? Like seriously WTF?
In this very comparison, Hope a Genuine Mythological creature is being compared to the Immortal Hercules another Genuine Mythological creature. When and (colorful word) why do you insist on making this about non mythological creatures?
Hope hit Hulk. It had a physical affect on the Hulk. Hulk survives. How hard did Hope hit the Hulk is all that really matters.
Originally posted by Stoic
That would be exactly what you're attempting to do. As long as you continue to ignore the physical aspect of what a Herc was intended to be a measurement of.Only True Genuine Mythological Entities Will Register On The Herc Scale. I get this. Can we get past this??? Like seriously WTF?
In this very comparison, Hope a Genuine Mythological creature is being compared to the Immortal Hercules another Genuine Mythological creature. When and (colorful word) why do you insist on making this about non mythological creatures?
Hope hit Hulk. It had a physical affect on the Hulk. Hulk survives. How hard did Hope hit the Hulk is all that really matters.
How do you think hercules would do vs. Hope? Do you think if he lost two of them could take out hope?
To me, if this creature is really tough enough to fight 133 Hercules, then that would definitely put hope over someone like thanos, who couldnt defeat 133 mid heralds, but who has phucked hulk 3 ways to sunday.
Originally posted by ilikecomics
How do you think hercules would do vs. Hope? Do you think if he lost two of them could take out hope?To me, if this creature is really tough enough to fight 133 Hercules, then that would definitely put hope over someone like thanos, who couldnt defeat 133 mid heralds, but who has phucked hulk 3 ways to sunday.
You're close.
Hope was never said to be as powerful as 133.45 x greater than Hercules. It says that Hope was 133.45 more powerful than a Punch from Hercules.
Now we have to figure out how powerful the hit truly was. It was significantly lower than being hit by a mythological creature that is 133.45 x more powerful than Hercules.
But outside of that, it isn't clear as to exactly how powerful Hope was.
It's actually a pretty vague statement until you do the math on how powerful you'd be if you were as powerful as 1 punch from Hercules.
Originally posted by Stoic
That would be exactly what you're attempting to do. As long as you continue to ignore the physical aspect of what a Herc was intended to be a measurement of.Only True Genuine Mythological Entities Will Register On The Herc Scale. I get this. Can we get past this??? Like seriously WTF?
In this very comparison, Hope a Genuine Mythological creature is being compared to the Immortal Hercules another Genuine Mythological creature. When and (colorful word) why do you insist on making this about non mythological creatures?
Hope hit Hulk. It had a physical affect on the Hulk. Hulk survives. How hard did Hope hit the Hulk is all that really matters.
See Rage's post. He hasn't got past this, not being as enlightened as you. And you can be as sure as hell Carver hasn't either. So that post which you quoted wasn't strictly directed at you. <Insert colourful word>.
Why do I insist on making it about non mythological creatures? Because in a month, in a year's time, there will be a thread and either on or both of those two (plus others) will go in and use the Hope showing for non mythological creatures. Simple.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See Rage's post. He hasn't got past this, not being as enlightened as you. And you can be as sure as hell Carver hasn't either. So that post which you quoted wasn't strictly directed at you. <Insert colourful word>.Why do I insist on making it about non mythological creatures? Because in a month, in a year's time, there will be a thread and either on or both of those two (plus others) will go in and use the Hope showing for non mythological creatures. Simple.
I'm Sorry.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never knew Colossus was a mythological person who could radiate the kind of energy that was measurable in Hercs.People only focus on the last scan, and miss the preceding one, which gives context as to WHAT kind of energy is being measured.
If a person is non mythological/magical, they have 0 Hercs. Simples..
Edit: there you go Stoic, this is what I was referring to, with Rages post.
I understand what you're trying to point out, and I don't necessarily disagree. We might be splitting hairs here. Here's the entire scan:
Pandora is clocked at 133 Hercs. Hercules is almost as strong as the Hulk, ergo we're f*cked. What you're suggesting would just require an additional step to come to the same conclusion. I.e. Chronos would be 30 Hercs, and Colossus is 0, but we know Colossus is weaker than Hercules, so he'd be at < 1 Herc and is out of his depth.
Unless you think 1 Herc has nothing to do with physical strength in terms of measurement, and only with "mystical energy". Which would be confusing as she specifically says the "maximum amount of energy he can expand in one blow" (Aka a punch) and in the same scan, his strength is compared to the Hulk as a barometer.
1 Herc = How hard Hercules can punch OWAW style
If only mystical entities can be sensed via Hercs, it would actually be a cool twist, and allow us to convert traditional strength vs. mystical power.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I understand what you're trying to point out, and I don't necessarily disagree. We might be splitting hairs here. Here's the entire scan:Pandora is clocked at 133 Hercs. Hercules is almost as strong as the Hulk, ergo we're f*cked. What you're suggesting would just require an additional step to come to the same conclusion. I.e. Chronos would be 30 Hercs, and Colossus is 0, but we know Colossus is weaker than Hercules, so he'd be at < 1 Herc and is out of his depth.
Unless you think 1 Herc has nothing to do with physical strength in terms of measurement, and only with "mystical energy". Which would be confusing as she specifically says the "maximum amount of energy he can expand in one blow" (Aka a punch) and in the same scan, his strength is compared to the Hulk as a barometer.
1 Herc = How hard Hercules can punch OWAW style
If only mystical entities can be sensed via Hercs, it would actually be a cool twist, and allow us to convert traditional strength vs. mystical power.
Its the entire page, yes, but you missed the preceding page (so you've only presented half the information). Where Cosimo specifically says what energy Herc expends that she is measuring. I can let you see it for yourself if you want, but I cropped the important panel at the start of this thread. Cosimo was interrupted halfway through her explanation, and people only ever focus on the second half of her sentence.
And yes, I DO think Hercs have NOTHING to do with physical strength in terms of measurement. WBH when he was stomping Fin Fang Foom, was only 0.21 Hercs. Foom himself was clocked at 17.3. yet he was literally being stomped on like a bug by the greatest Hulk we've ever seen.
Who was still only 20% of Hercules. In short, it's how mystical Hulk was at the time, NOT how strong he was.