Kylo Ren Respect Thread

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Heavy weights do not fight light weights in competition. And that has nothing to do with one weight being more skilled than the other. Theres simply an unfair weight/strength advantage there.

In combat The definition of skill is not who wins a fight.

But If the writers of these source books mean how they would actually compare in a sword fight, then they need to learn to express themselves better. But as it stands theres nothing there to use in a debate.

Come on people, it literally compares Kylo to Luke and Vader by saying they all possess formidable lightsaber skills. That should give you an idea of how formidable his lightsaber skills are.

Nah thats not what skill means.

Tyson was not known for being the most skilled fighter when he was champion.

Its impressive nonetheless given we know how incredibly skilled Vader was as a swordsman (at least as Anakin), but it really doesnt mean much in regards to if he could seriously compete with Vader or Luke in a sword fight.

Im sticking with the more concrete quotes from the films that Kylo was no Vader, rather than accepting an ambiguous quote that Kylo was already a Vader level swordsman years before the films. Especially when it doesnt even say that.

It really isnt hard to say Kylo was Lukes equal as a swordsman. I mean I just said it.

Dueling is not the same as boxing, there are no weight classes. And no one said Kylo was a Vader level swordsman.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ill personally be sticking with the movies themselves which go out of their way to tell us Kylo is no Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesnt suddenly make him Vader level from one movie to the next though.

So it is possible for some characters(especially those linked to the Skywalker or Palpatine bloodlines) to achieve significant growth in a short period of time.

Mike Tyson's skill as a boxer was overshadowed by the ferocious knockouts and intimidating aura, but Mike was actually very technical.

His head movement and footwork combined with his ability to punch from different angles was all elite.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah thats not what skill means.

Tyson was not known for being the most skilled fighter when he was champion.

Its impressive nonetheless given we know how incredibly skilled Vader was as a swordsman (at least as Anakin), but it really doesnt mean much in regards to if he could seriously compete with Vader or Luke in a sword fight.

Im sticking with the more concrete quotes from the films that Kylo was no Vader, rather than accepting an ambiguous quote that Kylo was already a Vader level swordsman years before the films. Especially when it doesnt even say that.

It really isnt hard to say Kylo was Lukes equal as a swordsman. I mean I just said it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Right.

I'm just saying that the "much like" quote specifically seems to be in reference to Kylo's saber skills as of TLJ/RoS. I am not trying to claim that Kylo's swordsmanship was already in the ballpark of Luke/Vader back when he killed the Jedi students, and I personally do not think the statement is indicative of that.

...Unless, as I said earlier, we assume that Kylo's saber skills only increased negligibly in the 6-7 years between his initial turn to the dark side, and the events of TLJ/RoS. /shrug

tl;dr
Based on the quote, my personal opinion is that Kylo's "peak/prime" saber skills(which I assume to be the TLJ/RoS era) were intended to be somewhere in the ballpark of Luke and Vader. I do not believe that quote necessarily puts his skills on par with(much less superior to) Luke/Vader, however.

Yeah I see what you're saying Galan. It just seems odd to me that "much like" would be used in a way that only applies to Kylo Ren as of TLJ but not also as of the time he killed Luke's students given that it's quoted under a heading that is briefly discussing the time when he killed his fellow students. That's why I feel that the other interpretation fits better.

Originally posted by Rebel95
That's a weird comparison though. You wouldn't say an 8 year old amateur boxer possesses great skills much like his legendary professional uncle and grandfather. That wouldn't make sense because they're not even close.

I agree with Prime and Galan on this one. Comparing Kylo to his uncle and grandfather like that there's definitely an indication of parity--or at least some level of parity. It wouldn't make sense if Kylo isn't even close to their level.

Not if "much like" in this case is used to mean that Kylo Ren followed in his uncle and grandfather's footsteps by having formidable saber skills at all, not necessarily that those skills rival their own.

Originally posted by Dominis
Not if "much like" in this case is used to mean that Kylo Ren followed in his uncle and grandfather's footsteps by having formidable saber skills at all, not necessarily that those skills rival their own.

^Exactly. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Originally posted by Rebel95
I’m just going to agree to disagree. I don’t think they would have included his uncle and grandfather unless they wanted to give us an idea of how skilled Kylo is. Otherwise they just would have said “Kylo possesses formidable lightsaber skills.”

But likewise they could have just said Kylo was their equal in Saber combat. But they didnt do that either. I think these quotes are all made purposely ambiguous tbh.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're entitled to your opinions, but I'm not sure why Snoke taunting and demeaning Kylo after his failure at Starkiller Base is anymore of a definitive measuring stick than the quote at hand?

Tbf, Luke was demonstrably inferior to Vader across the board during ESB. Fast-forward just 1 year to RotJ, and Luke's power/skill were stated to be equal to Vader's.

So it is possible for some characters(especially those linked to the Skywalker or Palpatine bloodlines) to achieve significant growth in a short period of time.

Because was repeated by 2 different characters. Hence why I think the movies hit us over the head with that.

Sure, but there needs to be a reason to believe that there was some exceptional increase in his last year of 10-15 years of training.

Originally posted by Rebel95
I don’t think anyone is saying that Kylo is a Vader level duelist. Could he be? Maybe. But I don’t think that’s what any of us are saying the quote says. It just compares Kylo’s lightsaber skills to his. That’s still pretty impressive and gives us an idea of how good he is.

Im getting the impression Prime is saying that. Perhaps Galan as well.

Yeah just having that skill level in itself (without being their equal) is impressive. I agree there.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Im getting the impression Prime is saying that. Perhaps Galan as well.

Yeah just having that skill level in itself (without being their equal) is impressive. I agree there.

For example, a lot of people think Kylo is only an average Jedi knight level duelist, or worse. I think this quote rules that possibility out.

You wouldn’t compare a low level swordsman to master level swordsmen. Or at least I wouldn’t.

Kylo seemed clumsy as **** when fighting. People like Ventress or even Kit Fisto definitely look more skilled

I love when people use the choreography to say that Kylo is a poor duelist. We know this isn’t the intention based off of the multiple sources stating the exact opposite.

JJ said he wanted to model the sequels choreography after the OT so it’d look more raw and realistic. The choreography isn’t meant to be indicative of their actual lightsaber prowess. Vader looks slow, especially in ANH. If he was actually that slow he would get torn apart by the PT Jedi. But we all know he’s one of the best of all time.

Also notice how when Ben uses Anakin’s lightsaber his form completely changes and looks more reminiscent of the PT Jedi. It could be that he uses a different form with the crossguard lightsaber. You can’t do all those flashy PT lightsaber twirls without cutting off your wrists

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Not necessarily. I’ve said multiple times that that wasn’t my point. He could be, but I just think that he must be somewhere near their level in terms of lightsaber skill. Otherwise the comparison wouldn’t have been made.

For example, a lot of people think Kylo is only an average Jedi knight level duelist, or worse. I think this quote rules that possibility out.

Oh I agree there. He is a trained Skywalker after all.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh I agree there. He is a trained Skywalker after all.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
^Exactly. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Because the quote says that much like his uncle and grandfather he has formidable saber skills, not that his formidable saber skills are much like his uncle and grandfather's.

I mean, you can take it to mean the latter I guess, but to say that is the only way it can be interpreted is just wrong.

If what Galan is saying is correct, and "much like" is making a comparison, but that the comparison only applies to Kylo Ren as of TLJ, then it feels kinda odd IMO given that it's quoted under a heading that briefly discusses the time Kylo Ren murders Luke's students, which happens several years before TLJ.

However, if that part of the quote applies to Ren as far back as when he killed Luke's students, then that would suggest that Kylo Ren as of TLJ is considerably above Luke and Vader in terms of saber ability (unless you do not believe Ren made any progress at all between then and TLJ [which I do believe he did considering the progress he made in just a year between TLJ and TROS]) and as of TROS he's beyond even that.

^I don't buy that, and I don't think that is what the quote was trying to suggest ether, which is why I think the best interpretation is that "much like" was simply used as a way of saying Kylo followed in his uncle's and grandfather's footsteps by having formidable saber skills at all.