Originally posted by Darth Thor
We saw how he faired against Palpatine.Zero reason to think hed fair much better against Yoda.
Vader scales miles above a dooku stomper and luke is his equal. Not really sure what yoda's argument here is. Are you expecting luke to throw away his lightsaber and for yoda to use force lightning?
Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf, RotJ Palpatine should be considerably above RotS Yoda....And Yoda isn't going to spam lightning.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You mean that version of palpatine yoda hasn't fought?Vader scales miles above a dooku stomper and luke is his equal. Not really sure what yoda's argument here is. Are you expecting luke to throw away his lightsaber and for yoda to use force lightning?
Whose the Dooku stomper that Vader scales miles above?
ROTJ Luke was equal to a conflicted Vader. Hes not a match for Prime Vader in the Force. Theres tons of evidence that contradicts this that idea.
Originally posted by Sheev
Vader scales massively above Dooku,
As does Yoda.
Originally posted by Sheev
and is a better duelist then Sidious.
Maybe.
But im curious if everyone who propagates this also concede Maul is a superior duelist to Dooku, and that both Maul and Dooku are superior duelists to Kylo. Because there does seem to be some double standards going around regarding that list.
Originally posted by Sheev
ROTJ Luke was his equal.
Well we know he was equal to a conflicted Vader. But we dont know he was equal to Prime Vader.
Lukes trouble against a Rancor compared to Vader ripping apart a cybernetically enhancer Rancor (with the Force and without his Saber), suggests Prime Vaders force mastery is significantly above ROTJ Lukes.
Originally posted by Sheev
So I'm curious why Yoda would win. Much less "easily"??
Dont know about how easy it would be, but he didnt seem at all close to Palpatine, so my guess would be he was not Yodas equal YET.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
But im curious if everyone who propagates this also concede Maul is a superior duelist to Dooku, and that both Maul and Dooku are superior duelists to Kylo. Because there does seem to be some double standards going around regarding that list.
Originally posted by xPRIMEx
To be fair, that list was made before TLJ. So it would be referring to TFA Kylo who’s only showing at the time was when he was conflicted and badly injured.
Point still stands. If we use that list then should use it consistently.
But yes im fine with it being Kylo as of TFA. (The book was one of the Journey to TFA series and the list had a picture of Kylo in the background).
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maybe.But im curious if everyone who propagates this also concede Maul is a superior duelist to Dooku, and that both Maul and Dooku are superior duelists to Kylo. Because there does seem to be some double standards going around regarding that list.
Lukes trouble against a Rancor compared to Vader ripping apart a cybernetically enhancer Rancor (with the Force and without his Saber), suggests Prime Vaders force mastery is significantly above ROTJ Lukes.
Dont know about how easy it would be, but he didnt seem at all close to Palpatine, so my guess would be he was not Yodas equal YET.
1. Maybe prime Maul would be above Dooku as a duelist if he wasn't an overconfident dumbass in every fight, and actually went allout- he did do well against Sidious for a bit. But Dooku would still beat him in a fight, just like Sidious would beat Vader in a fight.
2. TBF, Luke didn't even try to use the force against the Rancor at all. Maybe it was part of his ruse, or maybe you can chalk it up to shitty 80s direction. Either way, a canon quote puts Luke's power in the force equal to Vader's.
3. Vader wasnt equal to ROTJ Sidious, but that doesn't mean he wouldnt have been equal to or stronger than ROTS Sidious (and therefore ROTS Yoda). Like i said- ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious.
Originally posted by Sheev
1. Maybe prime Maul would be above Dooku as a duelist if he wasn't an overconfident dumbass in every fight, and actually went allout- he did do well against Sidious for a bit. But Dooku would still beat him in a fight, just like Sidious would beat Vader in a fight.2. TBF, Luke didn't even try to use the force against the Rancor at all. Maybe it was part of his ruse, or maybe you can chalk it up to shitty 80s direction. Either way, a canon quote puts Luke's power in the force equal to Vader's.
3. Vader wasnt equal to ROTJ Sidious, but that doesn't mean he wouldnt have been equal to or stronger than ROTS Sidious (and therefore ROTS Yoda). Like i said- ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious.
1. He's not overconfident in EVERY fight. He's overconfident when he's the superior fighter, or when he underestimates his opponent. Neither would apply to fighting Dooku. Like he didn't underestimate Sidious or Vader. He accepted he's their inferior in combat.
Given Maul's latest force feats, I really don't see an argument for Dooku winning if it's accepted Maul is the superior duellist.
2. What ruse? He wasn't hiding he's a Jedi. He warned Jabba not to underestimate his powers. Not to mention he Did Kill the Rancor.
Again ROTJ Luke was equal to ROTJ Vader who seemed to have a fair bit of conflict by that time. Doen't mean ROTJ Luke was equal to Prime Vader, at the height of his evil and dark side days.
And canon quotes are not > canon showings. In fact I'd say showings are more indicative of the truth, as quotes can ignore context.
As for old effects, it's not like the writer of that comic didn't remember Luke's showing against a regular rancor.
3. Yeah I get that. It's just that Luke was so hopelessly helpless against Sidious in a way I don't see a saber less Yoda being.
In fact Seemed Vader was much better equipped to take on Sidious (he did kill him), which again indicates Vader's superiority to Luke in the Force.
Originally posted by Darth Thor1. I should say- every LOSS Mauls had can be attributed to him going full retard and underestimating his opponents. If he actually goes allout without being an overconfident dumbass, he's pretty uber (again just look at his fight with Sidious. He did pretty well at the end, all things considered). As for a fight with Dooku- I think their TK would be comparable, but the difference is that Dooku can spam lightning. I think that would give him an advantage in the end. And just because the list puts Maul above Dooku as a duelist, it doesnt mean there is some massive difference between their skills. Same with Vader and Sidious.
1. He's not overconfident in EVERY fight. He's overconfident when he's the superior fighter, or when he underestimates his opponent. Neither would apply to fighting Dooku. Like he didn't underestimate Sidious or Vader. He accepted he's their inferior in combat.Given Maul's latest force feats, I really don't see an argument for Dooku winning if it's accepted Maul is the superior duellist.
2. Again ROTJ Luke was equal to ROTJ Vader who seemed to have a fair bit of conflict by that time. Doen't mean ROTJ Luke was equal to Prime Vader, at the height of his evil and dark side days.
And canon quotes are not > canon showings. In fact I'd say showings are more indicative of the truth, as quotes can ignore context.
As for old effects, it's not like the writer of that comic didn't remember Luke's showing against a regular rancor.3. Yeah I get that. It's just that Luke was so hopelessly helpless against Sidious in a way I don't see a saber less Yoda being.
In fact Seemed Vader was much better equipped to take on Sidious (he did kill him), which again indicates Vader's superiority to Luke in the Force.
2. Vader was conflicted, but to think his conflict took him down considerably is a bit baseless. He was still a BEAST in ROTJ, and Luke was his equal. The Rancor showing alone doesnt denote a difference in Force power.
3. Yoda barely managed to hang in there with a weaker version of Sidious. I have no doubt that a more powerful Sidious (ROTJ) would stomp him comfortably. It would be like comparing 19bby Vader to 0bby Vader.
Originally posted by Sheev
1. I should say- every LOSS Mauls had can be attributed to him going full retard and underestimating his opponents. If he actually goes allout without being an overconfident dumbass, he's pretty uber (again just look at his fight with Sidious. He did pretty well at the end, all things considered). As for a fight with Dooku- I think their TK would be comparable, but the difference is that Dooku can spam lightning. I think that would give him an advantage in the end. And just because the list puts Maul above Dooku as a duelist, it doesnt mean there is some massive difference between their skills. Same with Vader and Sidious.2. Vader was conflicted, but to think his conflict took him down considerably is a bit baseless. He was still a BEAST in ROTJ, and Luke was his equal. The Rancor showing alone doesnt denote a difference in Force power.
3. Yoda barely managed to hang in there with a weaker version of Sidious. I have no doubt that a more powerful Sidious (ROTJ) would stomp him comfortably. It would be like comparing 19bby Vader to 0bby Vader.
1. Fair enough. As long as everyone using that list is being consistent now and accept that Dooku would be just a little above a non-retarded Maul due to his lightning advantage.
2. Well there's the Rancor showing, the chasing scout troopers (Vader would have casually TK'd those bikes and bikers). Plus the fact Luke and Vader never had a TK contest in ROTJ (Power in the force also applies to Sabers).
Point is we really don't know how much his conflict was effecting Vader at that time. But we do know ROTJ Luke doesn't seem to be anywhere near as impressive as Peak Vader. At least not in the TK department.
3. Would it be that much of a difference? I don't know. I'm sure he was more powerful, but again, Luke was completely helpless next to him. I don't see Yoda (or Vader for that matter), being that helpless against ROTJ Sidious. Unless it's somehow shown that his power increase from ROTS to ROTJ is that large.
1. 👆
2. Right but Luke not using TK as predominately as Vader in the movies doesn't preclude the notion that they were still equals in the force. They just fought lesser adversaries differently, as Jedi and Sith tend to do.
3. It took all Yoda had just to barely block Sidious's lightning in ROTS. A more powerful ROTJ Sidious would definitely overwhelm him rapidly. You're right that there's no way to know exactly how MUCH stronger Sidious became between ROTS and ROTJ but considering how stupidly OP his bloodline is (which we saw in Rey's growth) it's safe to assume his powers would have grown immensely over that time. He at least grew enough that even Vader (who himself grew far more powerful over the years) still wasn't able to defeat Sidious alone by the OT.
Originally posted by SheevGrandiose displays of Force power in the OT films was a rarity anyway.
2. Right but Luke not using TK as predominately as Vader in the movies doesn't preclude the notion that they were still equals in the force. They just fought lesser adversaries differently, as Jedi and Sith tend to do.
I mean, what were Vader's best Force/TK feats in the original films? Choking a couple officers..? Throwing some small boxes at Luke..? Palming blaster fire..? It's not like the films back then emphasized large-scale battleboard feats.
The difference is that Vader's power/skill in canon has been fleshed out abundantly across dozens of appearances in comics, novels, and TV shows. Conversely, RotJ-era Luke has only appeared in one comic since 2014, so he really has no supplementary showings to weigh against Vader's(even though his one appearance in that era was pretty beastly.) Almost everything we've seen from canon Luke thus far has been from the ANH and ESB eras, which obviously has no bearing on RotJ Luke... So you can't just say: "Vader preformed [insert feat here] in the comics, therefore he is above Luke." It's a faulty comparison, because as of now RotJ Luke hasn't really been explored at all.
But as mentioned, the fact that Luke(or Vader, for that matter) haven't displayed massive Force feats on-screen doesn't preclude the notion that they were still intended to be equal by the time of RotJ, per a canon source. So until canon gives us a legitimate reason(in the way of contradictory material) to assume otherwise, that's just... How it is. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
But as mentioned, the fact that Luke(or Vader, for that matter) haven't displayed massive Force feats on-screen doesn't preclude the notion that they were still intended to be equal by the time of RotJ, per a canon source. So until canon gives us a legitimate reason(in the way of contradictory material) to assume otherwise, that's just... How it is. /shrug
Vader dealing with the cybernetically enhanced Rancor as he did, is a legitimate reason Imo.
Its not like the writer of that comic wasnt aware of Lukes struggle against a regular Rancor.
Its not good enough to say the films dont show massive force feats. Whatever Vader didnt do in the OT didnt contradict what he can do.
For example Vader choked someone from the other SD over the view screen, doesnt mean he cant choke someone from another planet.
Plus again, ROTJ Luke being equal to a conflicted Vader doesnt mean hes equal to Vader at the prime of his dark side peak.
And again Power in the Force /= TK Mastery. Power in the Force is used in Saber prowess as well, as we saw in ROTS when Anakin beat Dooku without the use of TK or FL, but clearly the intention was he was more powerful in the Force.
Originally posted by Darth ThorI'm just saying it's a faulty comparison.
Vader dealing with the cybernetically enhanced Rancor as he did, is a legitimate reason Imo.Its not like the writer of that comic wasnt aware of Lukes struggle against a regular Rancor.
Its not good enough to say the films dont show massive force feats. Whatever Vader didnt do in the OT didnt contradict what he can do.
The OT films did not emphasize large-scale battleboard feats. Vader's best TK feat in the original films was hurling some small boxes at Luke, for example. We only know how OP Vader's Force powers really are thanks to the plethora of supplementary material he has appeared in since. Luke, however, simply does not have any supplementary material to weigh against all of Vader's.
For example, in the film Luke didn't even attempt to use any Force powers/TK against the Rancor or Jabba's goons on the sail barge... But in the one canon comic RotJ-era Luke has appeared in, he spammed TK waves multiple times against his opponents:
https://i.imgur.com/LWO8fni.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3ZMPYz6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IkOu7pN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/97wci9i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MVuL5Br.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/e9SXJFS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UY6InFx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3htt1nC.jpg
Point being: canon supplementary material undoubtedly portrays some of the characters in a much more uber light than the films did. So just because Luke didn't handle the Rancor in a 1983 film similarly to how Vader handled one in a 2016 comic, it doesn't preclude the fact that they were still intended to be equals during RotJ(as a canon quote explicitly states.)
Now if RotJ-era Luke actually HAD a bunch of canon showings that still didn't put him on par with Vader(or even a couple quantifiable contradictory showings/statements), then I could see your point... But the Rancor showings alone certainly do not disprove anything, for reasons I mentioned above. Canon says they were equal during their fight in RotJ, so that's just how it is until we get a legitimate reason to believe otherwise. /shrug
Originally posted by Darth ThorJust depends how much you think Vader's conflict was hindering him.
Plus again, ROTJ Luke being equal to a conflicted Vader doesnt mean hes equal to Vader at the prime of his dark side peak.
Beware the Power of the Dark Side! states that Vader was still "always" fueling himself with hatred/rage during RotJ -- even while fighting Luke:
"Vader blocks attack after attack, but is pushed back farther each time. Always fueled by hatred... But now he gathers additional strength from fear."
So like I mentioned in the other thread: said conflict was not implied to be affecting him much at all in that battle.
Originally posted by Darth ThorThe quote differentiates between lightsaber skill and power in the Force. They were stated to be equal in both areas.
And again Power in the Force /= TK Mastery. Power in the Force is used in Saber prowess as well, as we saw in ROTS when Anakin beat Dooku without the use of TK or FL, but clearly the intention was he was more powerful in the Force.
