ROTJ Luke vs. ROTS Yoda

Originally posted by Darthadi
Actually. If Luke with only a few years of training could be at the same level as Vader who had 20+ years of training (not to mention his training and knowledge of the force were better than Luke's) wouldn't this be the proof that either Vader lost potential after Mustafar (either because of injuries or, more likely, psychological reasons) or that for some reason he was not at his best during ROTJ?
I'm really curious if they would give as some form of explanation in the comics. Who knows, maybe it will be something similar to Rey downloading knowledge from Kylo, lol.

As mentioned, canon states/implies that Vader never lost potential, and his power only grew over the years. He was indeed conflicted to some extent in RotJ, but Beware the Power of the Dark Side! states that he cast those emotions aside, and legitimately wanted to either kill Luke or turn him to the dark side -- his feelings towards Luke were initially hate/fear... So I don't think his conflict was inhibiting his abilities much at all there.

Strange as it is, I think Luke was just on Vader's level by then(which canon also confirms.) HOW Luke ascended to that level is the real question -- one that I hope is fleshed out in the comics.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well as far as I recall, Palps wasn't gonna be replaced anyway and he wanted to takeover Luke's body which isn't full of mechanical stuffs, according to the new Canon info...or was that just implied? Either way. Why would he wanna have a crippled body or an apprentice?

Really though this is just another one of those many new Canon issues. It would easily be done with if they said that Vader's potential was lost because...it honestly doesn't change much of anything actual power wise that Vader has shown thus far, because his potential was never gonna be reached anyway.

I mean his potential could be 10 or 100 of Palpatine, but how does anyone really gauge that with the actual power shown? It's pointless. 10 could be lifting an ISD, 100 could be lifting an ISD who cares.

Though it would help with the story and the reasoning of ESB/ROTJ dialogue. It'll probably come up at some point, just as it's noted that Ben Kenobi did grow weaker.

An argument could me made that peak Vader may have been on par with(or possibly even beyond) the level of RotS Palpatine... But Palpatine's own power would have also grown considerably over the years, which explains why Vader was always a notch or two below him.

I've said this before, but I think Vader never unlocked more of his potential because Palpatine was intentionally withholding knowledge from him -- only feeding Vader just enough teachings to keep him subservient, while hoarding as much knowledge as possible for himself. Remember, Palpatine never really wanted Vader to usurp him... So keeping his power in check like that would make sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it was stated in the RoS novel that Palpatine had made the same proposal to Luke that he did to Rey. So presumably the line in RotJ: "strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete" equates to: "kill me in anger so that I can transfer my essence into you." /shrug

An argument could me made that peak Vader may have been on par with(or possibly even beyond) the level of RotS Palpatine... But Palpatine's own power would have also grown considerably over the years, which explains why Vader was always a notch or two below him.

I've said this before, but I think Vader never unlocked more of his potential because Palpatine was intentionally withholding knowledge from him -- only feeding Vader just enough teachings to keep him subservient, while hoarding as much knowledge as possible for himself. Remember, Palpatine never really wanted Vader to usurp him... So keeping his power in check like that would make sense.

Ah ok, I thought you said something about that, but I wasn't sure of the source if it was the RoS novel or not. /Shrug

So basically the same as he was in prior Canon too, cause there were sources saying that he did grow in power and all that and did have access to great knowledge and what not.

The only thing now that I'm seeing different with Vader, is just that his potential apparently was never hindered(was this actually stated or just speculation since there isn't saying otherwise?) ....but that doesn't really matter if he is or isn't cause he'd never reach it regardless.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The only thing now that I'm seeing different with Vader, is just that his potential apparently was never hindered(was this actually stated or just speculation since there isn't saying otherwise?) ....but that doesn't really matter if he is or isn't cause he'd never reach it regardless.

But yeah, he was obviously never able to reach his full potential. Palpatine likely saw to that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Chee said in a Tweet that injuries don't reduce potential in canon, and one of Vader's bios from Rebels stated that he still had the highest midi-chlorian count among Jedi or Sith.

But yeah, he was obviously never able to reach his full potential. Palpatine likely saw to that.

Now that I'm thinking of it...wasn't this also true prior? Because there were a few characters who got maimed and yet only grew more powerful beyond what they were before. Hell I also recall that Palps noted that Vader could still grow to the point where he could kill him and that only his only real hinderance was psychological than physical. Which if Chee or Lucas really did care on that aspect, I don't think would let fly, especially Chee.

Plus didn't Plaeguis muse that cybernetics didn't actual hinder a Force User?

Irregardless though, Vader did or didn't get hindered, it doesn't matter in the end.

Buuuut anyway, seeing as I guess this has trailed off long enough. I'm thinking Yoda has the better feats IIRC.

While Luke is extremely skilled and talented he is still not at the Yoda level.

Sabers: Yoda. Luke can put up a good enough fight, but Yoda was able to conclusively demonstrate his superiority to Dooku, and was able to disarm Sidious in ROTS.

Force: Yoda. Not much explanation needed here. One can absorb Sidious lightning while the other cannot. While Luke has more potential than Yoda that potential has not been realized by ROTJ.

All-Out: Yoda. Reasons stated above. Yoda is a far more seasoned duelist, has better feats, and Luke just is not there yet.

Luke wins.

Vader by this point would have smoked Yoda, and Luke was Vader's peer.