Originally posted by Artol
To be specific, because it is a significant, completely irreversible intervention that as far as I know isn't a common occurrence that has a long history of existing in human beings.
Are you claiming that the effects of puberty blockers can 100% be reversed, no matter how long the kid took them?
Originally posted by ArtolWhy not? Puberty blockers can damage the body, and makes the child unable to have children of their own once they grow up. All because they had a sense of gender non-conformity.
I think, like most people, it is important to weigh the harm and benefit of individual situations. I suspect you do as well. And you seem generally like an intelligent person, you must realize that this example of cutting off a limb of a child won't be particularly convincing to me as it is not the same logical basis that I derive my POV from.
Originally posted by SurturI've already heard stories from detransitioners who were fast-tracked to puberty blockers by their parents and opportunist doctors. And yeah, some of them are literally just gay people who dressed atypically.
I don't even think we know what the long term effects are for these puberty blockers, do we?What if a kid is a boy and says he is a girl and is put on puberty blockers for years and years and then around age 20 he realizes "I'm not a girl I'm just gay"? He's basically screwed.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Why isn't it particularly convincing to you? both are examples of bringing the kids body in line with what the kids feel is the proper state for them.
One delays the choice to a later situation sparing them significant distress and enabling them to make a more informed decision at a later point and the other is irreversible and afaik not a common thing in humans.
I don't want to pretend that puberty blockers are a free, no negative aspects thing either, of course they have issues, alone not going through puberty when everyone around you does is something that comes with negative potential. That's why it must be weighed by the parents and medical professionals, with great weight and care given to the input of the child.
Originally posted by SurturPrecisely. And they shouldn't be made for kids, either; not by crazy parents, and not by greedy, opportunistic doctors.
I think if you go on puberty blockers for years and years and then decide you aren't transgender you can't really undo most of the changes made either.Point is such potentially life altering decisions shouldn't be made by kids.
Originally posted by Surtur
I think if you go on puberty blockers for years and years and then decide you aren't transgender you can't really undo most of the changes made either.Point is such potentially life altering decisions shouldn't be made by kids.
Agreed, it should be made by the adults in charge of the well-being of the child considering the child's input.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Are you claiming that the effects of puberty blockers can 100% be reversed, no matter how long the kid took them?
No
Originally posted by ArtolYes, in the same way that I want to make the decision for everyone that adults can't have sex with or interfere sexually at all children.
Isn't that just you saying you want to make the decision for everyone?
If that's me "making the decision for everyone" then so be it. Both are just as immoral.
On the same note, I also want to make the decision for everyone that the drinking legal age is limited, same for purchasing firearms, learning to drive... the list goes on. I'm just such an authoritarian. barker
Originally posted by Silent Master
Then why were you being dishonest by describing giving kids puberty blockers as merely "delaying the choice"?
I don't think I did that.
Originally posted by Scribble
Yes, in the same way that I want to make the decision for everyone that adults can't have sex with or interfere sexually at all children.If that's me "making the decision for everyone" then so be it. Both are just as immoral.
On the same note, I also want to make the decision for everyone that the drinking legal age is limited, same for purchasing firearms, learning to drive... the list goes on. I'm just such an authoritarian. barker
Hmm, I see, I mean I guess we won't agree on this topic.
Originally posted by ArtolThis is hilarious, btw. Allowing your child to permanently alter their body before their mind has even started fully developing is abuse. Okay then. Sounds like rational parenting to me.
I disagree, I view the opposite, to force a child to go through puberty when they strongly signal that they do not consider themselves to be the gender in line with their biology to be a form of abuse.
Seriously, wtf
Originally posted by ArtolDamn right we won't. As a trans person who grew up with Gender Dysphoria, I'm so glad I didn't grow up in this era, because I probably would have been interfered with by doctors before even getting a chance to properly explore my identity.
Httmm, I see, I mean I guess we won't agree on this topic.
Your stance quite literally disgusts me. And yet, you still think you're being helpful. You're not. Your outlook is incredibly dangerous for young people who have gender confusions or issues.
Originally posted by Artol
If you read the full post that you are quoting there you will see that I specifically state that it is not merely that, but comes with negative aspects that must be considered as well.
I did read the full post, You flat out said "the other is irreversible" which means you're claiming that the effects of puberty blockers are reversible.
So, please cite the peer reviewed studies that back up this claim.
Originally posted by Scribble
This is hilarious, btw. Allowing your child to permanently alter their body before their mind has even started fully developing is abuse. Okay then. Sounds like rational parenting to me.Seriously, wtf
The reality is that some people are so distressed by their gender identity that to allow it is the better way. I completely understand your point that you don't want to pressure children into that, and I am sure that does happen. But we also must weigh up children that take their lives because they don't see a way out. There is evidence for example that children that wanted puberty blockers and received them have lower suicide ideation ( https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725 )
And we must also just look at how puberty blockers are used outside of children with gender identity issues, because there are other medical uses that are not nearly as controversial (for example for children with abnormally early puberty), and we should probably use them as our measuring stick.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I did read the full post, You flat out said "the other is irreversible" which means you're claiming that the effects of puberty blockers are reversible.So, please cite the peer reviewed studies that back up this claim.
I do not support this claim, I am sorry if I was imprecise in my usage of language.
Originally posted by Scribble
Damn right we won't. As a trans person who grew up with Gender Dysphoria, I'm so glad I didn't grow up in this era, because I probably would have been interfered with by doctors before even getting a chance to properly explore my identity.Your stance quite literally disgusts me. And yet, you still think you're being helpful. You're not. Your outlook is incredibly dangerous for young people who have gender confusions or issues.
I believe the same of your general stance, I think we as a society are still harming children with gender dysphoria, even if it has gotten better. But I am of course glad that you are happy with how your puberty developed.
Originally posted by ArtolLike I don't know what suicidal ideation caused by GD is like...
The reality is that some people are so distressed by their gender identity that to allow it is the better way. I completely understand your point that you don't want to pressure children into that, and I am sure that does happen. But we also must weigh up children that take their lives because they don't see a way out. There is evidence for example that children that wanted puberty blockers and received them have lower suicide ideation ( https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725 )And we must also just look at how puberty blockers are used outside of children with gender identity issues, because there are other medical uses that are not nearly as controversial (for example for children with abnormally early puberty), and we should probably use them as our measuring stick.
It all smacks of playing God and trying to engineer 'ideal' societal scenarios. It's a form of eugenics.