You know, I can see both sides of this discussion. I could never properly rank the Invincible Universe in my mind.
On the one hand, their feats themselves are not on the level of the upper echelon in Marvel/DC -- and I'm talking about strength/durability [speed is far above the vast majority in Marvel, and pretty good compared to non-Flash/Supes types]. This might be because you have one writer for the whole run -- and while that mitigates low showings [I can't think of one that stands out, and I don't think this is talked about enough], it also doesn't really allow for high ones since there's no space for the pendulum to swing under one writer. Their capabilities/feats are consistent. It is also quite Dragon Ball Z-ish, in that more powerful viltrumites just straight up roflstomp weaker ones, while that is very rare in Marvel/DC.
On the other hand, the Supreme showing does exist. And no matter what you think of continuity/revisions and whatnot, what matters is that in the same arc, Supreme casually destroyed a planet/moon:
And Omni Man was shown as >= that same Supreme:
Is it consistent with their other showings? I'd say if you look at solely the feats no -- but it gives a very good glimpse on how, once the Viltrumites are plucked out of their corner and start facing other characters, they're not getting dismembered. That is one rare occurrence of them being written by somebody else, for perspective.
Since I made the comparison with the manga, back to the discussion at hand, Thragg basically treats Omni-Man similar to how 1st form Freeza treated Nail.
So....yeah.
But, for all of the Viltrumites relative showings, I think Captain Marvel scaling off of Black Adam [who has some of the most ridiculous combat showings in comics -- and the one I'd associate with Thragg a lot] works in his favor, too. And with the recent "I'm also a sorcerer, lol" showings ... I'd lean towards him. Maybe. Not sure tbh, as I said initially, Invincible is just a Universe that has more in common with DBZ than Marvel/DC so it's hard to really compare.
I have no idea, honestly. It works under different rules. As in -- Hulk/Thing is competitive in Marvel. If they were in Dragon Ball, given the difference in 'power level', it'd probably be like buff Roshi fighting USSJ Trunks.
You can argue that even Piccolo in Dragon Ball is mid-herald. And then also argue that Freeza is, too. Even though, inside that Universe, they're ridiculously far apart.
Originally posted by CosmicCometWhy so?
That crossover with Supreme means essentially nothing.
In the letters section of Invincible #99, Kirkman himself stated that the Nolan/Supreme crossover was canon:
Originally posted by PhilIt's also interesting because the only visible 'damage' Nolan sustained(despite a bloodlusted Supreme repeatedly striking him), was a small amount of blood flinging out of his mouth toward the beginning. Aside from that, he appeared completely uninjured(physically.) And for what it's worth, Nolan also soaked Supreme's HV just fine during that fight.
Is it consistent with their other showings? I'd say if you look at solely the feats no -- but it gives a very good glimpse on how, once the Viltrumites are plucked out of their corner and start facing other characters, they're not getting dismembered. That is one rare occurrence of them being written by somebody else, for perspective.
Originally posted by Galan007
Why so?In the letters section of Invincible #99, Kirkman himself stated that the Nolan/Supreme crossover was canon:
It's also interesting because the only visible 'damage' Nolan sustained(despite a bloodlusted Supreme repeatedly striking him), was a small amount of blood flinging out of his mouth toward the beginning. Aside from that, he appeared completely uninjured(physically.) And for what it's worth, Nolan also soaked Supreme's HV just fine during that fight.
I'm aware its canon.
From the perspective of using it to scale to older more Silver Ageish level feats past Supreme runs have shown us, I consider it dishonest.
(Not saying you are doing that)
No one would believe Universal level Nolan and Mark. Let alone universal+ level Thragg.
For me they top out at moon/planetoid level.
For me I see it more as retconning Supreme to be much weaker than he actually was, lowering him down to mid herald level. That's what I mean by the crossover being meaningless.
Pre-retcon Supreme is now a thing. Bless.
Originally posted by MrMindIn terms of feats, it definitely is. 😉
according to Phil, Supreme's HV is garbage compared to Superman's 😖hifty:
Mainly brought that up because the notion that high-end Viltrumites are 'squishy' has always been silly to me.
Kirkman loves writing graphic, gore-filled fights that you'd almost never see in Marvel/DC... But that doesn't mean any random character can just walk up to a noteworthy Viltrumite and rip them apart. As mentioned, a physical barrage from Supreme only managed to draw a minuscule amount of blood from Nolan.
Originally posted by CosmicCometI don't see it that way, because Larsen consistently wrote 'mean' Supreme at his most powerful levels ever... So I have a hard time believing that Supreme was intentionally watered down just for his fight with Nolan.
I'm aware its canon.From the perspective of using it to scale to older more Silver Ageish level feats past Supreme runs have shown us, I consider it dishonest.
(Not saying you are doing that)
No one would believe Universal level Nolan and Mark. Let alone universal+ level Thragg.
For me they top out at moon/planetoid level.
For me I see it more as retconning Supreme to be much weaker than he actually was, lowering him down to mid herald level. That's what I mean by the crossover being meaningless.
Pre-retcon Supreme is now a thing. Bless.
I think that's just the level Larsen believes Nolan(and by proxy, the other high-end Viltrumites) can operate on. /shrug
Just want to point out that if an EQUAL hurt you, that doesn't make you squishy (lol), that means that the person is strong enough to damage you. Black Adam and Superman have damaged Captain Marvel, that doesn't make him weak, that means that these beings are powerful enough to damage him. Even break bones.
🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't see it that way, because Larsen consistently wrote 'mean' Supreme at his most powerful levels ever... So I have a hard time believing that Supreme was intentionally watered down just for his fight with Nolan.I think that's just the level Larsen believes Nolan(and by proxy, the other high-end Viltrumites) can operate on. /shrug
"Narratively' he may have been the most powerful Supreme ever, but definitely not feat wise.
And in the end he ends up being relative to a verse where planet busting is considered extremely impressive, so much so that in an earlier arc it had to be done with prep and three way effort. And fighting on the mere surface of the sun is life threatening.
So essentially the Invincible-verse drags the average of Supreme down greatly by making his 90s and early 2000s feats unusable.
Imo, Kirkman just sees the S-tiers at those levels. So if he wrote Supreme in his Invincible-verse, he'd be a peer to Viltrumites.
Or, let me put it this way -- somebody like Icon [shameless plug: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t665645.html] in his own series makes Viltrumites look like they're cosmic beings -- but once he meets Superman, he is suddenly 'not quite, but close'. Once he joins the Justice League, he can suddenly do reasonably well against a Sun-Eater. Icon was the strongest guy in his [weak] Universe, so once he comes to DC, he is near-the strongest guy [Superman] in all Universes. It's all about "stature". And I guess we're not far off from each other, given "Narratively" seems close to what I'm saying.
Like, for example, if Viltrumites would suddenly be in DC, you'd see Thragg beat the utter shit out of the Justice League, only for Superman to come in and put him out with increased effort.
Then again, that's just imo.
On the forum, purely on displayed capabilities, it matters how much weight you put into the Supreme showing. In a pure feat-war, they can't win.
I'm fine with Viltrumites scaling to Supreme, but only the version with the feats explicitly seen. E.g. Nolan fighting the Supreme that busted the planetoid/moon/whatever in question. That can still work with the Invincible setting without outright contradiction; celestial bodies can vary greatly in size and density afterall.
Giving them the backlog of star to universe level scaling that Supreme has in his lore backlog would break the setting and atmosphere Kirkman established for the Invincible series however.
Supreme becoming connected to the larger more prolific Invincible-verse tethers him and lowers him. Essentially a retcon. The same way Icon is retconned to 'roughly' everyday Clark levels, whereas in his original universe you might argue that Iron Man could beat him feats wise.
In both cases the crossovers at least happened officially and canonically.
But I'm not willing to give Viltrumites blanket high herald status just because its possible writers that never handled them might see them that way. Until they bust a star or fight and beat someone who did bust a star in the same arc I cant imagine that they can.
Originally posted by CosmicCometI mean, it was outright stated that mean Supreme > ALL Supremes. Larsen's intent in that respect was abundantly clear, hence why all the other Supremes feared him(and said intent was made even clearer when he had mean Supreme beat the dogshit out of Suprema just before fighting Nolan.)
"Narratively' he may have been the most powerful Supreme ever, but definitely not feat wise.And in the end he ends up being relative to a verse where planet busting is considered extremely impressive, so much so that in an earlier arc it had to be done with prep and three way effort. And fighting on the mere surface of the sun is life threatening.
So essentially the Invincible-verse drags the average of Supreme down greatly by making his 90s and early 2000s feats unusable.
I'm not sure why the planet-busting thing keeps getting mentioned? Is it because Space Racer destabilized its core first? Dunno. But either way, Thragg >>> Mark/Nolan/Thadeus(as seen when he easily raped them all afterward), so meh. /shrug
As for the star thing: aside from being a little sweaty, Thragg and Mark were pretty much fine while fighting on its surface(they even tanked a flare) -- it was only when they entered the interior of the star that they began burning. But again: it's not like herald-level characters in DC/Marvel haven't been hurt or killed by sun-level heat, so I don't understand why that makes the Viltrumites look weak? As mentioned above, I'm just not an advocate for the whole "Viltrumites have shit durability" argument... Really all I was getting at.
Nolan's fight with Supreme isn't a low showing for Supreme -- it's a high showing for Nolan, imo. Regardless, a single fight certainly doesn't drag-down Supreme's entire character history.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaAgreed. 👆
Imo, Kirkman just sees the S-tiers at those levels. So if he wrote Supreme in his Invincible-verse, he'd be a peer to Viltrumites.Or, let me put it this way -- somebody like Icon [shameless plug: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t665645.html] in his own series makes Viltrumites look like they're cosmic beings -- but once he meets Superman, he is suddenly 'not quite, but close'. Once he joins the Justice League, he can suddenly do reasonably well against a Sun-Eater. Icon was the strongest guy in his [weak] Universe, so once he comes to DC, he is near-the strongest guy [Superman] in all Universes. It's all about "stature". And I guess we're not far off from each other, given "Narratively" seems close to what I'm saying.
Like, for example, if Viltrumites would suddenly be in DC, you'd see Thragg beat the utter shit out of the Justice League, only for Superman to come in and put him out with increased effort.
Then again, that's just imo.
On the forum, purely on displayed capabilities, it matters how much weight you put into the Supreme showing. In a pure feat-war, they can't win.