!!!The Official Dragon Ball vs. Comics Thread!!!

Originally posted by carver9
It's simple, the more powerful you are, the less an attack would work on you. If someone with a power level of 40k became helpless from a time stop attack, it would be much harder to use that same attack from the same person on someone who have a power level of 1 million. This is the reason people with higher power levels sit on the thrown in DB because no matter what type of versatility you have, it means absolutely nothing against someone who double you in "power"

Yup, everything scales up in Dragonball. Resistance, speed, strength and even fighting ability minus a few exceptions.

Originally posted by carver9
It's simple, the more powerful you are, the less an attack would work on you. If someone with a power level of 40k became helpless from a time stop attack, it would be much harder to use that same attack from the same person on someone who have a power level of 1 million. This is the reason people with higher power levels sit on the thrown in DB because no matter what type of versatility you have, it means absolutely nothing against someone who double you in "power"

But what makes character traits part of that scaling?

Does Vegeta have 40% more willpower than Dabura, and does Fat Buu have 40% more than Vegeta? Is it clearly even willpower that enabled Vegeta to overpower Babidi? Because these are the things you'd need to prove to then be able to scale Vegeta to other characters.

I mean, let's use Lantern rings as a guide. Your assertion is that as DB characters get more powerful physically, all their attributes increase.

Ok, so does their willpower increase too? This is what you are arguing, so let's say yes.

Does their anger (red ring) increase too?
Compassion?
Hope?
Love?

You see what I am getting at....if what you say is true and we blanket assume all their character traits scale with power, Jiren being infinitely more powerful than Kid Goku means he has infinitely more willpower (and thus, can resist TP etc) but ALSO infinitely more anger, love, compassion etc etc.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Yup, everything scales up in Dragonball. Resistance, speed, strength and even fighting ability minus a few exceptions.

Do character traits scale up as well?

Is Vegeta 40% funnier than Dabara? Because Vegeta overpowering Babidi due to his character, is being scaled to everyone else as if it's a stat like speed. This is pretty much a no limits fallacy being argued here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is pretty much a no limits fallacy being argued here.

Yes, SS2 Vegeta overrode Babidi's mind control, and Babidi was a global telepath... But does that automatically mean Jiren could shrug off a TP assault from, say, a prime Cassandra Nova(who casually mindphucked a Cerebra-amped Xavier)..? While it may be possible, it can't really be proven, imo, because again: TP shenanigans are an EXTREME rarity in this franchise.

It all depends on the scale of telepath Cassandra Nova is.

Babidi is a planet wide telepath as you said, and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta marked the limit of his telepathic abilities-- who was a solar system+ level character via scaling above Super Perfect Cell.

Dabura -> Ssj2 Vegeta -> Fat Buu all represented a linear ascension in power and also showed how Babidi's power faltered the more ki he was dealing with.

Seeing as even base Namek Saga Goku was a decent telepath and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta would have been several thousands of times more powerful, the scaling chain gets insane fast.

If Cassandra Nova's scale is only like, several times wider
than Babidi's then I see no reason to assume she would even remotely affect Jiren at all--who is literally infinitely stronger than anyone below BoG arc Goku.

If her scale is hundreds or even thousands of times greater than Babidi's then I would not feel comfortable saying Jiren could no sell her TP.

While it's well known that physical stats scale linearly with power level in Dragon Ball, with TP resistance it's not outright stated in the same way.

BUT--there is concrete evidence suggesting it does via Babidi's showings. And no evidence that I can think of that suggests TP resistance *doesn't* scale linearly in DB.

The series is extremely straightforward in it's A < B < C scaling.

Arale vs Superman

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do character traits scale up as well?

Is Vegeta 40% funnier than Dabara? Because Vegeta overpowering Babidi due to his character, is being scaled to everyone else as if it's a stat like speed. This is pretty much a no limits fallacy being argued here.

All combat traits scale. Yes, that includes will power.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It all depends on the scale of telepath Cassandra Nova is.

Babidi is a planet wide telepath as you said, and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta marked the limit of his telepathic abilities-- who was a solar system+ level character via scaling above Super Perfect Cell.

Dabura -> Ssj2 Vegeta -> Fat Buu all represented a linear ascension in power and also showed how Babidi's power faltered the more ki he was dealing with.

Seeing as even base Namek Saga Goku was a decent telepath and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta would have been several thousands of times more powerful, the scaling chain gets insane fast.

If Cassandra Nova's scale is only like, several times wider
than Babidi's then I see no reason to assume she would even remotely affect Jiren at all--who is literally infinitely stronger than anyone below BoG arc Goku.

If her scale is hundreds or even thousands of times greater than Babidi's then I would not feel comfortable saying Jiren could no sell her TP.

While it's well known that physical stats scale linearly with power level in Dragon Ball, with TP resistance it's not outright stated in the same way.

BUT--there is concrete evidence suggesting it does via Babidi's showings. And no evidence that I can think of that suggests TP resistance *doesn't* scale linearly in DB.

The series is extremely straightforward in it's A < B < C scaling.

My issue is that it really just can't be proven one way or the other, as we only have that one instance to go by(offensive TP just isn't a thing in DB.) So it certainly skirts the line of a no limits fallacy to assume that Jiren's raw power alone would make his mind so impenetrable that even a telepath on Cassandra Nova's level couldn't affect him.

I'd also mention that all minds are not created equal. Give Dabura the same mindset, resolve, and mental fortitude that Vegeta had, and maybe he could have broken free of Babidi's control as well(despite being weaker than Vegeta.) Likewise, give farmer with a shotgun Goku's power, and who's to say that Babidi would be unable to control his mind? Point being, I think TP-resistance still comes down to more than *just* the raw power at your disposal.

👆

Originally posted by Classic NES
All combat traits scale. Yes, that includes will power.

So what defines a 'combat trait'? Has this been defined in DB or are you going to make a list up?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what defines a 'combat trait'? Has this been defined in DB or are you going to make a list up?

Obviously something used in combat. Even imperfections in techniques are reduced as power level scales. Things like Mafubu and Final explosion for example are no longer fatal for God tiers.

Originally posted by Galan007

I'd also mention that all minds are not created equal. Give Dabura the same mindset, resolve, and mental fortitude that Vegeta had, and maybe he could have broken free of Babidi's control as well(despite being weaker than Vegeta.) Likewise, give farmer with a shotgun Goku's power, and who's to say that Babidi would be unable to control his mind? Point being, I think TP-resistance still comes down to more than *just* the raw power at your disposal.

The problem with that is mind correlates directly with power in Dragonball. When Ginyu first took over Goku's body he didn't have the mental comtrol required to tap into Goku's full power. So, he was much weaker at first.

Dabura not having vegetas mental fortitude translates to him being weaker than vegeta overall.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Obviously something used in combat. Even imperfections in techniques are reduced as power level scales. Things like Mafubu and Final explosion for example are no longer fatal for God tiers.

Ok, so anger is used in combat. Would Vegeta be 40% angrier than Dabura?

In DC, emotions are weaponised with the various lantern corps. Would Vegeta have 40% more compassion than Dabara? The Indigo Tribe uses Compassion in combat, the Blue Lanterns use Hope in combat, if you have both Dabara and Vegeta Blue Lantern rings would Vegeta have 40% more hope lmao.

Or is this a case by case basis where you make up what does or doesn't count as a combat trait.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok, so anger is used in combat. Would Vegeta be 40% angrier than Dabura?

In DC, emotions are weaponised with the various lantern corps. Would Vegeta have 40% more compassion than Dabara? The Indigo Tribe uses Compassion in combat, the Blue Lanterns use Hope in combat, if you have both Dabara and Vegeta Blue Lantern rings would Vegeta have 40% more hope lmao.

Or is this a case by case basis where you make up what does or doesn't count as a combat trait.

Specifically, it's how their emotions can impact their power. Dabura as far as I know doesn't have anger that gives him a boost. So, in this case for a non-sayian even if they have 40 percent more anger it won't contribute to their power level. But, it's the complete opposite with sayians. If compassion can augment power than it would count.

For the record I meant everything that factors in combat scales proportionally. I can't say for example that Goku can become so powerful that he no longer needs air to survive. Because he's never shown that his biological functions improve in that way with power ups. So, we cannot scale that. But, TP resistance is something we've seen so we can scale that.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Specifically, it's how their emotions can impact their power. Dabura as far as I know doesn't have anger that gives him a boost. So, in this case for a non-sayian even if they have 40 percent more anger it won't contribute to their power level. But, it's the complete opposite with sayians. If compassion can augment power than it would count.

For the record I meant everything that factors in combat scales proportionally. I can't say for example that Goku can become so powerful that he no longer needs air to survive. Because he's never shown that his biological functions improve in that way with power ups. So, we cannot scale that. But, TP resistance is something we've seen so we can scale that.

So we're saying that possession a la Deadman hasn't been seen in DB, so we can't scale that. Ok.

Thanks.

If Cassandra Nova used mind bolts or illusions, or just plain TP, no mind control, we can't scale that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So we're saying that possession a la Deadman hasn't been seen in DB, so we can't scale that. Ok.

Thanks.

If Cassandra Nova used mind bolts or illusions, or just plain TP, no mind control, we can't scale that.

Posession actually has been seen with Ginyu body swap. It's still seems like a threat. I'm not trying to argue that they can power through everything. Rather if they show resistance to something they should be more resistant to it at higher levels.

This reminds me of the 90s when Dragonball first appeared stateside and my cousins friend insisted that X-Man had enough TP to make Goku's head explode. (He had the bootlegs up to about the Cell games). Personally, imo TP may work. But, it's just not as liable to work as other strange exotics. My 2 cents.

I mean, we haven't even discussed the other way, which is what can Jiren do to a literal metaphysical spirit, or psionic energy like Nova.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, we haven't even discussed the other way, which is what can Jiren do to a literal metaphysical spirit, or psionic energy like Nova.

His best bet would be to use Hakai. It's non standard technique so it may not be applicable.

And it doesn't work against immortals no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And it doesn't work against immortals no?

Iirc, Goku almost did fused Zamas in with it but he couldn't control it/last out long enough to do the job. Hakai can destroy Ghost as well.