Did you even read the Frieza saga? Krillin cheapshotted Frieza and used solar flare against him.
Originally posted by cdtmJiren was going all out the entire time. That's why he casually ended it with a tap at the end.
You mean where Master Roshi dodged Jiren?"But he was holding back!"
The most convenient excuse for Dragon Ball fans. Even if the story doesn't say a thing about it, any and all instances of a character underperforming must be them holding back.
Originally posted by cdtmI mentioned it some pages ago, but the scaling for energy projection can still only go so far in Z.
I actually agree with everything Galan is saying.It's mostly the power scaling nerds who try and multiply power amps into absurd multiverse busting levels that I start having a bit of a problem.
This especially applies to unrelated stats, like speed. It's assumed they get faster as they get stronger, yet their actual speed feats ars very slim.
At least compared to a Flash.
By the end of the Cell saga, SPC's most powerful blast was capped at solar system level. So no matter how crazy you want to get with scaling between the Saiyan and Cell sagas, you still cannot go any higher than solar system level with your calcs.
Harder to say what level the characters were realistically operating at by the Boo saga, but given that Boo(all versions), SS3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, and Vegito were all several times beyond SPC/SS2-level, we can logically infer that they were casual solar system-busters; possibly even multi-solar system-busters... But I still see no legitimate reason to credit any character up to the Boo saga(even SS Vegito) as a bonafide galaxy-buster. /shrug
As mentioned, we didn't get into that level of power(for sure) until DBS, where one of the very first things King Kai mentioned was Beerus being able to wipe out galactic clusters just by throwing a hissy fit.
Originally posted by cdtm
The core canon has plenty of the same.Krillin never would have hit Freeza with his DD, if he was that fast.
Nor escaped him.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Did you even read the Frieza saga? Krillin cheapshotted Frieza and used solar flare against him.Jiren was going all out the entire time. That's why he casually ended it with a tap at the end.
I see you're doing a wonderful job embarrassing yourself on this forum, cdtm. As usual.
Keep it up 👆
You're wondering why your body is failing you? It's because you're giving yourself cancer with those retarded posts.
Superman gets one shotted, deal with it.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Did you even read the Frieza saga? Krillin cheapshotted Frieza and used solar flare against him.Jiren was going all out the entire time. That's why he casually ended it with a tap at the end.
Goku was too fast to get caught by Tien's solar flare.
The fact is, Freeza was too slow.
And as far as Jiren goes, I have no doubt whatsoever that he wasn't using a fraction of his real strength against Master Roshi.
The same way he wasn't using it against SSJ Blue Vegeta and Goku.
Do you feel he was using even less against Master Roshi then he did against the Saiyans? Because Whis and Beerus were looking on, and said nothing about it. In fact, Whis seemed impressed with Master Roshi, as did Goku.
Would there be reason to be impressed, unless Jiren was using more power then they felt anyone in the arena could handle at the time? And certainly much more then any human could handle?
What's so impressive about dodging a Jiren who isn't trying as much as he had been before hand?
a.) Roshi had never once displayed speed/movement on that level prior to engaging Jiren, so it obviously wasn't something Jiren knew he was capable of initially.
b.) Killing was strictly forbidden in the ToP. Violation of that rule made you and your entire universe subject to instant erasure. No exceptions.
c.) Jiren can sense ki(he sensed the spike in ki when Toppo powered up to GoD-level), thus obviously would've known where Roshi's power stood in comparison to his own.
IOW, Jiren would have only been attacking Roshi with blows that he was absolutely sure wouldn't kill him. So to say that he was holding back immensely is a massive understatement... He was essentially suppressing himself all the way down to Roshi's level, for god's sake.
Originally posted by Galan007
a.) Roshi had never once displayed speed/movement on that level prior to engaging Jiren, so it obviously wasn't something Jiren knew he was capable of initially.
b.) Killing was strictly forbidden in the ToP. Violation of that rule made you and your entire universe subject to instant erasure. No exceptions.
c.) Jiren can sense ki(he sensed the spike in ki when Toppo powered up to GoD-level), thus obviously would've known where Roshi's power stood in comparison to his own.IOW, Jiren would have only been attacking Roshi with blows that he was absolutely sure wouldn't kill him. So to say that he was holding back immensely is a massive understatement... He was essentially suppressing himself all the way down to Roshi's level, for god's sake.
This applies to every character though. He never once had the problem of killing someone before Master Roshi. Crushed Goku well enough. And Vegeta. Who. Btw, it was clearly stated when he chose to shift gears in terms of power levels.
And there's my points about Whis's and Goku's reactions. If it's as you say, with Jiren holding back that much, then this becomes a non feat, and their reactions of being highly impressed make no sense.
Originally posted by cdtmBecause Goku countered it by grabbing glasses that means that anyone who stares directly into it is slower than Goku? If a Lomachenko stands still and allows you to punch him in the face with your rapidly atrophying body, does that mean you are faster than anyone who has whiffed punches against him?
Goku was too fast to get caught by Tien's solar flare.The fact is, Freeza was too slow.
Frieza nearly instantly cut off Krillin's escape by flying in front of him.
What is your point CD? Do you think Kid Goku is faster than 2nd Form Frieza or did you just think of a way you could lowball DB without actually thinking it through even though you only hate Super? Who is faster between 2nd Form Frieza and Kid Goku?
Originally posted by Galan007👆
So rants aside, here's what we actually know about energy projection up to the Cell/Boo sagas(without having to guess or use head-canon):Moon-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with a PL of 180 (ie. Roshi)
Moon-Busting(casually) can be accomplished with a PL of 329 (ie. Piccolo)
Planet-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with a PL of 18,000 (ie. Vegeta)
Planet-busting(casually) can be accomplished with a PL of 530,000 (ie. 1st form Freeza)
Solar system-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with SS2-level power (ie. SPC)
Solar system-busting(casually) can logically be accomplished with SS3-level power.It wasn't until DBS that true galactic/universal powers were introduced... But there's NO need to get into DBS scaling at this point, because people are still dodging the SAIYAN SAGA, ffs. 😂
Regardless, powerlevels and logical scaling definitely helps fill in some gaps, even if it's not always a perfect system. Take Krillin, for example: he has obviously never destroyed a planet, but based on his stated PL and logical scaling, we know that it was easily within his ability to planet-bust as far back as the Namek saga. IOW, even though Krillin hasn't actually destroyed a world on panel, we still know that he irrefutably can.
This is when the entirety of DB being written by the same guy for the last 30+ years becomes so important.
In essence:
Who is a comparable character with:
- Roshi busting a moon with effort [i.e. first Great Tournament PL Roshi]
- Piccolo busting a moon casually [i.e. Raditz-arc Piccolo]
...to start with. I see Cosmic Comet has mentioned Silver Surfer is maybe the one who can comparably do so. Surfer has destroyed two planets in what can be called all-out "let me show you power" instances
- Morg: https://imgur.com/F2iAedg [combined power]
- Ravenous: https://imgur.com/a/xr8Hvp4 [solo]
You can argue that he also destroyed a makeshift planet from rocks against Korvac [https://imgur.com/a/vajWTqj] but imo,...that's not quite that.
So that is 2 (or 3) instances of him destroying a planet.
Now, against moons we have him absorbing a small part of the sun, going insane, and then destroying a moon [but KOing himself in the process]:
https://imgur.com/a/dZI2Ewk
At the very limit of his capabilities, he is capable alongside his board of moving the moon to crash into Galactus:
https://imgur.com/a/e01onNx
There's quite a few instances of him failing against smaller level stuff but averaging out, I'd say that the assessment that it takes less than his full power to destroy the moon is fairly accurate, imo. We're splitting hairs if we'd go by 'how much effort Piccolo had vs how much he would', and I'd say that him doing it like that would be a high-end feat, but I don't have a problem with anybody thinking otherwise either.
[I'm obviously not saying Surfer is the weakest who can do this, but he roughly qualifies if we're talking about him]
The 'meta tier' discussion is also fun to have an overview over, so we can also talk about these:
(1)
Originally posted by Galan007
I'd be curious to know how you(and others) would rank a showing like this, for example:
Originally posted by PhilosophíaI'd like to think that Surfer isn't the *weakest*, but I'm drawing a blank on a weaker character who could realistically moon-bust without much effort. 😕
👆In essence:
Who is a comparable character with:
- Roshi busting a moon with effort [i.e. first Great Tournament PL Roshi]
- Piccolo busting a moon casually [i.e. Raditz-arc Piccolo]
...to start with. I see Cosmic Comet has mentioned Silver Surfer is maybe the one who can comparably do so. Surfer has destroyed two planets in what can be called all-out "let me show you power" instances
- Morg: https://imgur.com/F2iAedg [combined power]
- Ravenous: https://imgur.com/a/xr8Hvp4 [solo]
You can argue that he also destroyed a makeshift planet from rocks against Korvac [https://imgur.com/a/vajWTqj] but imo,...that's not quite that.
So that is 2 (or 3) instances of him destroying a planet.
Now, against moons we have him absorbing a small part of the sun, going insane, and then destroying a moon [but KOing himself in the process]:
https://imgur.com/a/dZI2Ewk
At the very limit of his capabilities, he is capable alongside his board of moving the moon to crash into Galactus:
https://imgur.com/a/e01onNxThere's quite a few instances of him failing against smaller level stuff but averaging out, I'd say that the assessment that it takes less than his full power to destroy the moon is fairly accurate, imo. We're splitting hairs if we'd go by 'how much effort Piccolo had vs how much he would', and I'd say that him doing it like that would be a high-end feat, but I don't have a problem with anybody thinking otherwise either.
[I'm obviously not saying Surfer is the weakest who can do this, but he roughly qualifies if we're talking about him]
The 'meta tier' discussion is also fun to have an overview over, so we can also talk about these:
(1)
Originally posted by StiltmanFTWYou probably aren't far off, tbh.
Hulk, lol?
Originally posted by Damborgsonpiccolo starts off by hitting him with a moon destroyer. krillin follows it up with a few discs. piccolo finishes it off with another moon destroyer. 👆
Wow, something about that rubs me the wrong way...Hulk reduced to fighting saiyan sage Piccolo and krillin.
Truth be told, Krillin would probably chop him up.