Originally posted by cdtm
Agreed. Me and DS are doing our own things. If we happen to align, that's great, but lets not pretend my opinion undermines his, or that we're "teaming up" like a couple of Trumpers and Proud Boys.To OBM points:
Ah, but there's a highly relevant plot point to Radditz's bullet proofness. The ability to raise and lower power levels isn't something he'd learned how to do.
Power level control was unique to the Z Warriors. Ergo, Radditz's power level of 1500 is ALWAYS at 1500. It never gets suppressed, and it never goes higher. The only exceptions are in the case of transformations, like Zarbon's and Freeza's.
Since we know Goku suppresses his power level, as you yourself admitted, we can conclude that his vulnerabilities are not informed by Radditz's.
I actually agree with most of your points here. Except for one.
And this is one Galan got wrong, too.
The rules call for "Full capacity". They also call for ignoring "Plot Induced Stupidity."
They don't say we ignore [b]Character Induced Stupidity.
For example, normally Superman doesn't kill. Unless otherwise stated by the original poster, Superman would sooner lose a fight then kill. It's a definite weakness, and legitimate argument against him (For example, one of the best arguments I've heard for why an amped World War 3 Black Adam would beat Superman in a scenario where he has access to sun dipping, is because Adam is savvy enough to threaten the lives if innocent civilian if he dares leave the battlefield.)
Now lets look at Rhino. In a forum fight, it would be entirely in character for him to blindly charge at an opponent that's standing on the opposite side of a sharp drop, BFRing himself. Stupid characters in comic books are stupid in forum fights, in other words.
And my points against Goku have mostly been to show that he's pretty stupid. He underestimates characters all the time. He needlessly suppresses his power level all the time against inferior characters. He's taken plenty of losses he really shouldn't have, because of his hubris. Such as against Freeza and Toppo.
Put Goku up against John Constantine, and Goku sees this low power level guy, gets arrogant like he usually does, and possibly falls victim to a spell or hex or curse, or deal with the devil.
This, of course, only applies to Goku. Vegeta has his own weaknesses, that happen to be very similar to Goku's. He's ridiculously arrogant, and tends to "toy" with his prey, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Again, Freeza is an example of this. He could have blown him away, but just HAD to stop and gloat. Boom.
And yes, I also realize Vegeta can ruthlessly one shot you, as he has to what's his face when he got to Namek, or the first fight in Babidi's little tourney. In that respect, he's actually a bit better then Goku, who is far more consistent in dropping the ball on "weaker" opposition. [/B]
Really good revelation brought up weeks ago. 👆
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Which doesn't matter to the looming question of the thread you keep having a meltdown with because Raditz doesn't lower his own power.
This still doesn't mean Goku's past was retconned. He is still bulletproof to a point where he doesn't notice bullets at his lowest portrayal. The entire spiel about Dragon Ball not counting is meaningless once you admit that the first enemy of Z is wildly stronger than Dragon Ball Goku with the retcon in effect. I'm not even sure how you thought this was an issue anyway? Like it was a sticking point?
How do you navigate around full capacity and what you're arguing exactly? You want Goku to be threatened by Punisher while also operating at full power so therefore CIS makes him weaker. It doesn't work. If he's at full power then he's not supressing his powers to infinitesimal levels. And Goku's CIS is also correlated directly to PIS. Goku has zero issues knocking people out. What happens due to PIS is Goku has people beaten but he wants to spare them for another day so they can turn good. There is no plot in the forums. There is no another day. He beat Frieza to a point of no return and spared him because he wanted him to understand. That's not saying he couldn't have just KO'ed him but it had the same effect to how much power he lost. He was no threat and Goku left because of the story. Goku is not reforming bad guys on the forum and he's not running away from battles. So he's only left with winning which he is fully capable and willing to do.
What you're arguing is how these things would happen "maybe" in a comic setting. You're basically presenting it as if Goku can beat no one ever and will never team up with anyone because it's not in his nature to be cheap and overwhelming. These "loopholes" you're presenting are prevalent for almost every character Goku can fight per your logic. They also exist for every other character too. You basically want Goku to just scale his power to the person he's fighting and this is considered a "win" in your books. You somehow have Constantine, Superman, and Flash instantly pulling out massive attacks instantly while Goku actively supresses his powers. Even though all these people job to far more than Goku does in far more fights and it's ingrained in their brains as CIS as well. If Goku is taking it easy against Superman, then Superman is not using max speed and power immediately. It cuts both ways.
The CIS happens after the fight or if Goku meets some sort of equal in a ring out scenario. He doesn't lose all capacity for knocking someone out just because he spares the big bad guy when he has him beat because of history with them.
But yes, Goku has better odds of losing than Vegeta on the forums because of you doubling down on plot reasons. That still doesn't impact the power levels or bring down the whole verse. Under your logic with all stars aligning you could simultaneously argue Super Goku loses to Punisher while Punisher immediately dies to King Piccolo and this would somehow be a win in your mind. Goku sucks when you control the plot under the guise of CIS, go figure. Maybe there's a banana peel on the floor too?
Being a pussy about it after all these pages STILL doesn't account for the theme of Raditz though. Goku doesn't lose anymore for lack of might but he loses because he doesn't try! Haha, we did it Surtur, DB sucks!
Your axe wound is just gaping at this point.