😕
It's the core canon, the original Dragon Ball manga.
Written and drawn by Toriyama.
Everything from it counts, even if we weren't aware of Goku's Saiyan origins.
Goku still uses kamehameha to this day and bullets still can't pierce his skin, not even when his guard is down. At best, they irritate it a little. Even your precious Luke Cage often gets marks on his skin when he's getting shot.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
😕It's the core canon, the original Dragon Ball manga.
Written and drawn by Toriyama.
Everything from it counts, even if we weren't aware of Goku's Saiyan origins.
Goku still uses kamehameha to this day and bullets still can't pierce his skin, not even when his guard is down. At best, they irritate it a little. Even your precious Luke Cage often gets marks on his skin when he's getting shot.
The same way Sabertooth being KO'd by normal punches is canon? 😛
I don't deny Toriyama wrote it, and that it happened. But you can't pretend he knew from the start that Piccolo wasn't a demon, but instead an alien from a race of aliens.
Krillin, he actually bled in the anime, didn't he? From a bullet?
Stop acting retarded.
Goku was never said to be human. Hell, he was bulletproof from his first appearance, possessed superhuman attributes and could turn into Oozaru under full moon. Him getting revealed to be Saiyan made perfect sense and didn't suddenly retcon away his durability, no matter how much you desire it to be the case.
King Piccolo was a demon of sorts, same as Kami was a god of sorts. Semantics.
Anyways, my main point was that Goku has a history of carelessness, and that this could cost him against a more clever, ruthless, or oveepoweeed comic book character.
Here's another example:
Goku should have won. He was equal to Toppo at the SSJG level, and should have had a comfortable advantage as Blue. But he got careless, by Toppo's own admission.
That's a pretty serious character flaw when we're talking about comparing him to weaker opponents that take down powerful beings for a living.
Here's a more famous example of Goku LOSING due to his carelessness:
This is one of my favorite Freeza moments ever. It's just so underhanded, and keeping with his character. Yet it worked. Freeza WON.
He beat Goku. Then Vegeta steps in, and he gets careless too, and this happens:
Same hubris. Same outcome.
Freeza wins. Whis cheats it from him, but it happened, he got them both.
Now imagine Frank Castle with solid intel on these guys, and a brick killer gun. They aren't all that hard to kill, if you cheat.
Goku being retconned to being far more powerful than a human is a great point. 👆
It's a good thing Goku also doesn't have an in-universe explanation for his power growing unlike the red herring of comic characters.
Cdtm looks down on us painting stickmen with our dicktips while he paints the Sistine Chapel with a paintbrush inserted up his ass.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Goku being retconned to being far more powerful than a human is a great point. 👆It's a good thing Goku also doesn't have an in-universe explanation for his power growing unlike the red herring of comic characters.
Cdtm looks down on us painting stickmen with our dicktips while he paints the Sistine Chapel with a paintbrush inserted up his ass.
His base was also retconned.
Because power levels were never a thing, he was ever weak enough to be hurt by a bullet. As I just showed he was.
Originally posted by cdtmWe already went over this. Goku specifically lowers his power level. Your brain works like sludge as you trudge up ideas that I covered weeks ago. Look at you coming to a "new" revelation like it's relevant to anyone except Goku you old sludgehead you. Do you not remember Goku rapidly raising his power level in an eye blink (not a literal eye blink before you two latch onto this like vampires)? Did you think that only applied to Punisher (as Darksaint now tries to latch onto showing he's basically just you)? Did you maybe think it was applicable to future arguments? When it took your brain weeks to slowly turn your sludged up cogs in your brain to branch off this idea, you should have realized it was covered already.
His base was also retconned.Because power levels were never a thing, he was ever weak enough to be hurt by a bullet. As I just showed he was.
When Raditz first appeared and "retconned" Goku's origin he was bulletproof as well. They retconned Goku weaker even though he was stronger actually.
But to cover your actual post, and to appease Darksaint before he goes all in and gets an angry Phildo to come in... Goku operating at a level able to strike humans can get scratched by a bullet. Because Goku can raise or lower his power level as high as he wants as he has extensive ki control. I'm sure you're aware of the group able to strike the punching machine that only had a couple multiples past Mr Satan's level? That is their ki control and holding back at work. If Goku is fighting real humans then he's holding back immensely. Goku's base is whatever he wants it to be. You're using a showing where he's literally catching bullets with his hands and then doesn't notice he got shot as evidence his durability is garbage when he's karate chopping humans in the ****ing delicate neck. 😬
That being said, Goku's holding back is a genuine flaw in his character, but as you saw before, he can raise it instantly faster than any scouters can tell.
Good page for when you tried to slime your way with the rules.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=671228&pagenumber=47
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I'm really not sure what cdtm's "angle" is here, other than just vapid DB hate.The idea that DB characters(and *only* DB characters for some reason) would enter a forum battle, where the full capacity rule is in effect, with their powers fully suppressed is...strange, to say the least.
The characters actively suppressing their ki only became a thing when the need arose to 'hide' from scouters and other beings who could sense ki... Which they obviously wouldn't care about doing in a forum battle.
But again, even IF we play cd's little game, DB characters can go from fully suppressed, to massively powerful, nigh-instantly:
*Goku starts with his PL suppressed down to 5,000(again, just to 'hide' his strength from the scouters.) He then increases his PL several times over, drops Recoome with a casual elbow, then suppresses his ki back down to 5k again... All before Burter and Jeice's scouters could even register the change(s).
Vegeta drives this fact home:
So again, even IF a DB character starts off a forum battle fully suppressed(cuz reasons), it's not like it gives their opponent some kind of insurmountable advantage, when they can massively raise their ki "instantaneously". 😬
Goku supresses his power depending on the situation, the others don't to nearly his degree. It's a character flaw but he's more than fast enough to account for it. You keep trying this tactic but even under your snakeyness it's under the agreement that Goku has to be weakened for this to work. How is this a win for you?
The only way someone like Frank is winning is if Goku actively supresses his power, knocks him down, monologues over him and then gets shot from somewhere else with an immensely powerful attack while looking at Frank. Vegeta on the other hand would instantly kill Frank. The only difference is one supresses their power and holds back and one doesn't. You also need full pis for Goku to do this even though he has no issue instantly knocking out humans while holding back.
If this happens and this happens but also if this happens but maybe this also happens? Completely irrelevant. Goku either needs to be powered down while his opponent is beaten and attacked from someone else, or rusty and taken down by an equal... not even ko'ed either, just ring outed. Him being non chalant is a character flaw, but something you still have to realistically apply and not just insert it willy nilly like your dad's nubs on cutlery. But yes, Goku beats everyone and then monologues to people he has zero history with in a fight with no story. Goku fights to negative capacity here too. How is Dragon Ball even a thing when I can concoct ways he loses specifically using things that would be called pis in comics? Maybe bring up Vegeta cheapshotting him while you're at it too to show it's applicable in a forum battle.
Base Vegeta (pre-god ki) doesn't even budge or blink during this scene:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Erm....don't taint me with this.I was the one who brought up Iron Fist.
Agreed. Me and DS are doing our own things. If we happen to align, that's great, but lets not pretend my opinion undermines his, or that we're "teaming up" like a couple of Trumpers and Proud Boys.
To OBM points:
Originally posted by One Big Mob
We already went over this. Goku specifically lowers his power level. Your brain works like sludge as you trudge up ideas that I covered weeks ago. Look at you coming to a "new" revelation like it's relevant to anyone except Goku you old sludgehead you. Do you not remember Goku rapidly raising his power level in an eye blink (not a literal eye blink before you two latch onto this like vampires)? Did you think that only applied to Punisher (as Darksaint now tries to latch onto showing he's basically just you)? Did you maybe think it was applicable to future arguments? When it took your brain weeks to slowly turn your sludged up cogs in your brain to branch off this idea, you should have realized it was covered already.When Raditz first appeared and "retconned" Goku's origin he was bulletproof as well. They retconned Goku weaker even though he was stronger actually.
Ah, but there's a highly relevant plot point to Radditz's bullet proofness. The ability to raise and lower power levels isn't something he'd learned how to do.
Power level control was unique to the Z Warriors. Ergo, Radditz's power level of 1500 is ALWAYS at 1500. It never gets suppressed, and it never goes higher. The only exceptions are in the case of transformations, like Zarbon's and Freeza's.
Since we know Goku suppresses his power level, as you yourself admitted, we can conclude that his vulnerabilities are not informed by Radditz's.
But to cover your actual post, and to appease Darksaint before he goes all in and gets an angry Phildo to come in... Goku operating at a level able to strike humans can get scratched by a bullet. Because Goku can raise or lower his power level as high as he wants as he has extensive ki control. I'm sure you're aware of the group able to strike the punching machine that only had a couple multiples past Mr Satan's level? That is their ki control and holding back at work. If Goku is fighting real humans then he's holding back immensely. Goku's base is whatever he wants it to be. You're using a showing where he's literally catching bullets with his hands and then doesn't notice he got shot as evidence his durability is garbage when he's karate chopping humans in the ****ing delicate neck. 😬That being said, Goku's holding back is a genuine flaw in his character, but as you saw before, he can raise it instantly faster than any scouters can tell.
Good page for when you tried to slime your way with the rules.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=671228&pagenumber=47
Goku supresses his power depending on the situation, the others don't to nearly his degree. It's a character flaw but he's more than fast enough to account for it. You keep trying this tactic but even under your snakeyness it's under the agreement that Goku has to be weakened for this to work. How is this a win for you?
The only way someone like Frank is winning is if Goku actively supresses his power, knocks him down, monologues over him and then gets shot from somewhere else with an immensely powerful attack while looking at Frank. Vegeta on the other hand would instantly kill Frank. The only difference is one supresses their power and holds back and one doesn't. You also need full pis for Goku to do this even though he has no issue instantly knocking out humans while holding back.
If this happens and this happens but also if this happens but maybe this also happens? Completely irrelevant. Goku either needs to be powered down while his opponent is beaten and attacked from someone else, or rusty and taken down by an equal... not even ko'ed either, just ring outed. Him being non chalant is a character flaw, but something you still have to realistically apply and not just insert it willy nilly like your dad's nubs on cutlery. But yes, Goku beats everyone and then monologues to people he has zero history with in a fight with no story. Goku fights to negative capacity here too. How is Dragon Ball even a thing when I can concoct ways he loses specifically using things that would be called pis in comics? Maybe bring up Vegeta cheapshotting him while you're at it too to show it's applicable in a forum battle.
I actually agree with most of your points here. Except for one.
And this is one Galan got wrong, too.
The rules call for "Full capacity". They also call for ignoring "Plot Induced Stupidity."
They don't say we ignore Character Induced Stupidity.
For example, normally Superman doesn't kill. Unless otherwise stated by the original poster, Superman would sooner lose a fight then kill. It's a definite weakness, and legitimate argument against him (For example, one of the best arguments I've heard for why an amped World War 3 Black Adam would beat Superman in a scenario where he has access to sun dipping, is because Adam is savvy enough to threaten the lives if innocent civilian if he dares leave the battlefield.)
Now lets look at Rhino. In a forum fight, it would be entirely in character for him to blindly charge at an opponent that's standing on the opposite side of a sharp drop, BFRing himself. Stupid characters in comic books are stupid in forum fights, in other words.
And my points against Goku have mostly been to show that he's pretty stupid. He underestimates characters all the time. He needlessly suppresses his power level all the time against inferior characters. He's taken plenty of losses he really shouldn't have, because of his hubris. Such as against Freeza and Toppo.
Put Goku up against John Constantine, and Goku sees this low power level guy, gets arrogant like he usually does, and possibly falls victim to a spell or hex or curse, or deal with the devil.
This, of course, only applies to Goku. Vegeta has his own weaknesses, that happen to be very similar to Goku's. He's ridiculously arrogant, and tends to "toy" with his prey, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Again, Freeza is an example of this. He could have blown him away, but just HAD to stop and gloat. Boom.
And yes, I also realize Vegeta can ruthlessly one shot you, as he has to what's his face when he got to Namek, or the first fight in Babidi's little tourney. In that respect, he's actually a bit better then Goku, who is far more consistent in dropping the ball on "weaker" opposition.