Darkest Knight & Perpetua vs PR Beyonder & Molecule Man

Started by abhilegend10 pages

Originally posted by Astner
It wasn't. It was a gross misrepresentation physics seemingly based off a pop science article or a documentary. It's a misrepresentation of the Endless as well since they came into existence at the beginning of the universe. Hence why Destiny is the oldest of them, Death the second oldest, and so on. So they're not eternal concepts like Tyler argued.

The 4th dimension was the only thing that caught my attention too, because he forgot what he had written and thought that it was the spiritual realm. When he had written it to be time in Justice League #19.

He fumbles to explain the spatial dimensions confusing zero dimensional space (a dot) and one dimensional space (a line) for one dimensional space (a line) and two dimensional space (a plane), there's also the problem with describing three-dimensional space (volume) as "material stuff" but it's a bit more forgiving, and the fourth dimension is as per the metric tensor time.

That doesn't look particularly infinite to me. Even then it's not clarified that it is the Pre-Crisis Multiverse.

I'm not going to take vague references over the 52 numbered universes in the multiverse unless there's a specific explanation that ties it together. The main reason for this is because the 52 universes are variations of each other.

In the Orrey of Worlds you have the 52 universes, numbered 0 to 51 and beyond that you have the spheres of the gods, the Speedforce, limbo, and eventually the Source Wall. That's the official explanation we've been given. It's not 100% coherent, but that's comics in general. However, we're still left with Morrison's map that specifically outlines 52 universes.

The Dark Multiverse is tied to the 52 universes. But since it's based off choice and happenstance (not to mention that they're unstable and collapse as frequently as they form) it's also finite.

With the Empty Hand arc we were introduced to different multiverses, but these supposedly existed beyond the Source Wall, i.e. beyond the DC multiverse, and while this may actually be infinite Perpetua didn't create that.

As far as we know this isn't of any significance. It doesn't say anything specific about her or her abilities.

The issue with these explanations is that they rely on Hyper-time (i.e. everything is canon is some way or form) and particular interpretations of vague statements to construct a cosmology that's very different from the one explored in the comics.

And if you follow these models the comics will make even less sense.

Again, there's very little substance here.

Yes, it takes an infinite number of two dimensional planes (x, y, dz) to construct a three dimensional volume (x, y, z). That's what an integral is: an infinite sum of infinitesimal elements.

But even then you end up with a sixth dimensional Perpetua, and an infinite dimensional Beyonder.

I'm not putting too much emphasis on the dimensionality of these characters. I'd still argue that World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk would beat the Pre-retcon Beyonder based on their actual feats despite the fact that he's a five-dimensional imp.


Being infinite dimensional means jackshit in comics. Beyonder's best feat is shaking the multiverse in a fight with Molecule Man and creating a universe (bigger than multiverse) with all his energy.

Not sure why that's so impressive. Even sphere of Gods dwarfs the infinite multiverse and then there's dark multiverse which houses three separate infinite multiverses just now (Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis) and that was created by just World Forger (far below Perpetua).

It's not only the scale of the feats but the consistency of the portrayals.

Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the rest of the multiverse combined, and that fraction of a million was probably represented by Molecule Man. But if we exclude the possibility of Molecule Man being included in this equation, that's still millions of times more powerful than the multiverse.

And keep in mind that Thanos only had to absorb the Abstracts of Multiverse to overthrow the One-Above-All.

So there's a case to be made for that there's no force in Marvel currently that would be able to stand against Pre-retcon Beyonder or Molecule Man.

Originally posted by Astner
It's not only the scale of the feats but the consistency of the portrayals.

Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the rest of the multiverse combined, and that fraction of a million was probably represented by Molecule Man. But if we exclude the possibility of Molecule Man being included in this equation, that's still millions of times more powerful than the multiverse.

Big whoop. Even Anti Monitor in COIE was more powerful than entire multiverse by infinite orders at the dawn of time because he actually had power of two multiverses and Perpetua is far above him. Millions of times sounds great but is hardly that great.

And keep in mind that Thanos only had to absorb the Abstracts of Multiverse to overthrow the One-Above-All.

Starlin's OAA is shit, he can't even repair a universe if there is disturbance in multiverse system.

So there's a case to be made for that there's no force in Marvel currently that would be able to stand against Pre-retcon Beyonder or Molecule Man.

Probably. But DC doesn't plays with the same rule.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Big whoop. Even Anti Monitor in COIE was more powerful than entire multiverse by infinite orders at the dawn of time because he actually had power of two multiverses and Perpetua is far above him. Millions of times sounds great but is hardly that great.

The Anti-Matter Universe was a universe, not a multiverse. Not to mention that COIE was a campaign for the Anti-Monitor. When the Beyonder considered destroying the multiverse it was just a matter of getting off his lazy ass and doing it, no campaign, and if it wasn't for the Molecule Man it wouldn't even be a struggle.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Starlin's OAA is shit, he can't even repair a universe if there is disturbance in multiverse system.

But it's the one reliable portrayal we have.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Probably. But DC doesn't plays with the same rule.

I certainly subscribe to the idea that there are characters within the DC canon more powerful than Pre-retcon Beyonder. I already mentioned, World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk. The Presence, Lucifer and Michael would be three more characters that I'd side with over the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Astner
The Anti-Matter Universe was a universe, not a multiverse. Not to mention that COIE was a campaign for the Anti-Monitor. When the Beyonder considered destroying the multiverse it was just a matter of getting off his lazy ass and doing it, no campaign, and if it wasn't for the Molecule Man it wouldn't even be a struggle.

Anti Matter universe was equal to the size of normal positive infinite multiverse and actually grew in the empty space of infinite multiverse once it was destroyed.

And Anti Monitor destroyed it and absorbed it casually.

But it's the one reliable portrayal we have.

It really isn't. Beyonder himself confirmed that Dr Strange could've trapped him in an illusion forever and puma almost killed him with the power of multiverse.

I certainly subscribe to the idea that there are characters within the DC canon more powerful than Pre-retcon Beyonder. I already mentioned, World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk. The Presence, Lucifer and Michael would be three more characters that I'd side with over the Beyonder.

I don't think Beyonder is as powerful as you think. All he has is bunch of statements and shaking the multiverse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anti Matter universe was equal to the size of normal positive infinite multiverse and actually grew in the empty space of infinite multiverse once it was destroyed.


There's nothing in that scan that suggests that the Anti-Matter Universe was the size of the multiverse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And Anti Monitor destroyed it and absorbed it casually.

With technology.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It really isn't. Beyonder himself confirmed that Dr Strange could've trapped him in an illusion forever and puma almost killed him with the power of multiverse.

Dr. Strange's illusions wasn't a matter of power, and the Beyonder orchestrated the event that made Pumpa powerful enough to kill him.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't think Beyonder is as powerful as you think. All he has is bunch of statements and shaking the multiverse.

I repeat, the thing about the Beyonder is that he was consistently powerful. Aside from Molecule Man no one could stand up to him. Not the heroes, not the villains and not even the Abstracts.

It wasn't. It was a gross misrepresentation physics seemingly based off a pop science article or a documentary. It's a misrepresentation of the Endless as well since they came into existence at the beginning of the universe. Hence why Destiny is the oldest of them, Death the second oldest, and so on. So they're not eternal concepts like Tyler argued.

I don’t take tyler’s theories too serious. But it is entertaining to think the endless dictate the fate of everyone in the multiverse. That our lives are predestined since the big bang. It’s just fun to apply comic book logics to real world sometimes, all in good fun, not science research by any means
A lot of his stuff is in theory but his other video about dc cosmology was spot on, he obviously knows his stuff especially regarding the vertigo side of the cosmology, and dematteis spectre run
DC cosmology is separated to two part,
the morrison/Snyder cosmology
Overvoid/Source
Judges of the Source, Cosmic armor superman/mandrakk, etc
Perpetua and her race
And
the dematteis/carey cosmology
Presence
Lucifer/Michael, the endless etc
Spectre

I know you are in the camp of vertigo not included in dc. But Dematteis, Snyder and Morrison all acknowledged sandman and lucifer. That’s fact.

That doesn't look particularly infinite to me. Even then it's not clarified that it is the Pre-Crisis Multiverse.

It absolutely was the pre-crisis multiverse, in the same issue it mentioned why COIE happened, why Anti-Monitor turn against his brothers

I'm not going to take vague references over the 52 numbered universes in the multiverse unless there's a specific explanation that ties it together. The main reason for this is because the 52 universes are variations of each other.

In the Orrey of Worlds you have the 52 universes, numbered 0 to 51 and beyond that you have the spheres of the gods, the Speedforce, limbo, and eventually the Source Wall. That's the official explanation we've been given. It's not 100% coherent, but that's comics in general. However, we're still left with Morrison's map that specifically outlines 52 universes.

The Dark Multiverse is tied to the 52 universes. But since it's based off choice and happenstance (not to mention that they're unstable and collapse as frequently as they form) it's also finite.

With the Empty Hand arc we were introduced to different multiverses, but these supposedly existed beyond the Source Wall, i.e. beyond the DC multiverse, and while this may actually be infinite Perpetua didn't create that.

There is no may or if, the multiverses are infinite because of perpetua and her race, there are infinite multiverse creation out there in dc. Perpetua only created one of the infinite. She’s just the most feared out of the super celestials in the omniverse
https://imgur.com/a/3MEizsM

you are way behind in your dc cosmology. Empty hand destroyed multiverse-2, but that’
s only 1 multiverse out of infinity

the orrery of worlds have 52, but there are also plethora of scans out there proving the multiverse is indeed collection infinite universes, from p52 to n52 to rebirth. Scans after scans ill post them when I get home.

Again, there's very little substance here.

Yes, it takes an infinite number of two dimensional planes (x, y, dz) to construct a three dimensional volume (x, y, z). That's what an integral is: an infinite sum of infinitesimal elements.

But even then you end up with a sixth dimensional Perpetua, and an infinite dimensional Beyonder.

I'm not putting too much emphasis on the dimensionality of these characters. I'd still argue that World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk would beat the Pre-retcon Beyonder based on their actual feats despite the fact that he's a five-dimensional imp.

There’s nothing in marvel compare to overvoid. Nothing, perpetua tore a piece from the highest level of creation possible. That feat alone dwarfs anything beyonder has done.

TOAA is not omnipotent after infinity ending. The pre-retcon beyonder shaked the multiverse, he didn’t destroy any infinite multiverse or beyond.

scans of dc multiverse being infinite here i come, Im only posting a small portion of scans, there's literally no way to argue against it

anyone who still insist on 52 universes, just give up or you'll be eating crows

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330325-3424591709-INRpF.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330326-6551573767-6GKQP.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330327-8045833951-QbMM9.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330328-5574198920-lRdkf.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330329-8855620690-jp1kk.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330330-0913636718-amMUZ.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330331-7955717875-rcOZG.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330332-5126586996-gpcPa.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/11141/111417047/7330396-3575583171-IErWA.jpg

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11141/111417047/7330401-5535185045-latest

Originally posted by Astner
There's nothing in that scan that suggests that the Anti-Matter Universe was the size of the multiverse.

Of course it does. Monitor was powered by entire positive multiverse and Anti Monitor by the anti matter universe and they still stalemated for a million years.

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]COIE AM was already equal to a multiversal power BEFORE he even began destroying the mainstream multiverse...

Remember, the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, ALL positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe that AM destroyed:

Despite the fact that Monitor possessed FULLY multiversal power, Anti-Monitor...at his absolute WEAKEST levels, mind you...was still his EQUAL:

"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with [b]equal power
. A war in which there could be no victor..."

With that in mind, remember that for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of ADDITIONAL anti-matter energy:

So when he ultimately absorbed the anti-matter universe:

...AM would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 that still remained, lol) ON TOP OF the multiversal power he already wielded -- so power roughly equivalent to TWO multiverses, in other words.

With technology.

What technology? Anti Monitor destroyed universes by his own power.

Dr. Strange's illusions wasn't a matter of power, and the Beyonder orchestrated the event that made Pumpa powerful enough to kill him.

What a bunch of excuses.

I repeat, the thing about the Beyonder is that he was consistently powerful. Aside from Molecule Man no one could stand up to him. Not the heroes, not the villains and not even the Abstracts. [/B]

For one story, sure. Doesn't matter much.

The thing that never made much sense to me is the scenario that has one guy measured to be a universal power proving to be tougher, and hit harder than another guy who is measured to be multiversal who struggles with far less than universal obstacles?

Originally posted by Astner
The Anti-Matter Universe was a universe, not a multiverse. Not to mention that COIE was a campaign for the Anti-Monitor. When the Beyonder considered destroying the multiverse it was just a matter of getting off his lazy ass and doing it, no campaign, and if it wasn't for the Molecule Man it wouldn't even be a struggle.

But it's the one reliable portrayal we have.

I certainly subscribe to the idea that there are characters within the DC canon more powerful than Pre-retcon Beyonder. I already mentioned, World's Funnest Mr. Mxyzptlk. The Presence, Lucifer and Michael would be three more characters that I'd side with over the Beyonder.

I appreciate you ranking mxy, Lucifer and Michael above beyonder👆

Beyonder creates SBP to punch Darkest Knight REALLY hard.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Beyonder creates SBP to punch Darkest Knight REALLY hard.

😂

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Beyonder creates SBP to punch Darkest Knight REALLY hard.

SBP retcon beyonder to post pre retcum beyonder, rectum punch beyonder into a post-op tranny

Originally posted by MrMind
SBP retcon beyonder to post pre retcum beyonder, rectum punch beyonder into a post-op tranny

Uhm, Beyonder walks around like a total chad with his open jacket and mullet.
Prime constantly whines and breaks down in tears.

If anyone's a tranny here then it ain't big B.

Space David Hasselhoff needs better fashion

shirtless emoboy prime attracts more teenage jailbaits type

Can't believe how badly they've botched Prime's development.

All that potential gone to waste.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Can't believe how badly they've botched Prime's development.

All that potential gone to waste.

same could be said about beyonder

But yeah, SBP has been done dirty

first teen titans, now BA and CM beat him

like he can rack up 10 high feats from now on and people would not let the low showings go

prime is one special case where everybody loves to hate him,

Originally posted by abhilegend
Big whoop. Even Anti Monitor in COIE was more powerful than entire multiverse by infinite orders at the dawn of time because he actually had power of two multiverses and Perpetua is far above him. Millions of times sounds great but is hardly that great.

AM had power of two multiverses? didnt perpetua just created the 1 multiverse they are all in?

Originally posted by 8swords
AM had power of two multiverses? didnt perpetua just created the 1 multiverse they are all in?

No, she created two multiverses, positive multiverse, dark multiverse and Anti matter universe which was equal to normal multiverse.