Originally posted by BrolyBlack
No one ever answer this question
Hey sorry, if this was meant as maybe you thought I was reluctant to respond, I'm just working. Work has been getting progressively busier as more of our clientele are welcomed back into the practice. Covid times has been really taxing on them. But luckily the people I've seen so far this morning are in good spirits.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Do they engage in the same level and amount of violence that BLM/Antifa have in the last 100 days of riots?
Originally posted by JohnnyRotton
Maybe because the Proud Boys haven't done anything of great infamy in recent while BLM antifags are torching cities.
I'm sorry, but to me, this is a very low bar. I don't think I can equate whether or not an organization is bad based solely on how long ago they "did something big." Like, I can disavow the KKK even though they haven't had like, a recent rally on the news or something. Like, I can disavow the nazi party and stuff just because they haven't recently broken a window and the news reported on it.
---
I see a real weird disconnect with this issue.
We (and I'm being generous here as a collective "we" at KMC) tend to weaken our own positions by refusing to give an inch, by calling the other side shittier. But like, what do you as the individual believe?
For example: What do the Proud Boys believe? What do they want? When the proud boys throw a rally, or have a demonstration, they scream that Jews won't replace them. They wear Pepe The Frog Pins. Their leader, Gavin Mckinnis, frequently says abhorrent and horrible things about other races, and vile things about women. Why is it so hard for Trump to just be like "**** them kids?"
Joe Biden pointed out that Donald Trump's very own FBI Director has classified The Proud Boys as a threat of white supremacists, whereas they had classified Antifa as an idea, and not malicious.
Originally posted by Quincy
Hey sorry, if this was meant as maybe you thought I was reluctant to respond, I'm just working. Work has been getting progressively busier as more of our clientele are welcomed back into the practice. Covid times has been really taxing on them. But luckily the people I've seen so far this morning are in good spirits.I'm sorry, but to me, this is a very low bar. I don't think I can equate whether or not an organization is bad based solely on how long ago they "did something big." Like, I can disavow the KKK even though they haven't had like, a recent rally on the news or something. Like, I can disavow the nazi party and stuff just because they haven't recently broken a window and the news reported on it.
---
I see a real weird disconnect with this issue.
We (and I'm being generous here as a collective "we" at KMC) tend to weaken our own positions by refusing to give an inch, by calling the other side shittier. But like, what do you as the individual believe?
For example: What do the Proud Boys believe? What do they want? When the proud boys throw a rally, or have a demonstration, they scream that Jews won't replace them. They wear Pepe The Frog Pins. Their leader, Gavin Mckinnis, frequently says abhorrent and horrible things about other races, and vile things about women. Why is it so hard for Trump to just be like "**** them kids?"
Joe Biden pointed out that Donald Trump's very own FBI Director has classified The Proud Boys as a threat of white supremacists, whereas they had classified Antifa as an idea, and not malicious.
Is that a yes or no to my question?
Biden never went head to head with Putin, Obama went head to head with Putin and told him to "knock it off" before that, this is what Obama said to Putin.
Originally posted by Quincy
Hey sorry, if this was meant as maybe you thought I was reluctant to respond, I'm just working. Work has been getting progressively busier as more of our clientele are welcomed back into the practice. Covid times has been really taxing on them. But luckily the people I've seen so far this morning are in good spirits.I'm sorry, but to me, this is a very low bar. I don't think I can equate whether or not an organization is bad based solely on how long ago they "did something big." Like, I can disavow the KKK even though they haven't had like, a recent rally on the news or something. Like, I can disavow the nazi party and stuff just because they haven't recently broken a window and the news reported on it.
---
I see a real weird disconnect with this issue.
We (and I'm being generous here as a collective "we" at KMC) tend to weaken our own positions by refusing to give an inch, by calling the other side shittier. But like, what do you as the individual believe?
For example: What do the Proud Boys believe? What do they want? When the proud boys throw a rally, or have a demonstration, they scream that Jews won't replace them. They wear Pepe The Frog Pins. Their leader, Gavin Mckinnis, frequently says abhorrent and horrible things about other races, and vile things about women. Why is it so hard for Trump to just be like "**** them kids?"
Joe Biden pointed out that Donald Trump's very own FBI Director has classified The Proud Boys as a threat of white supremacists, whereas they had classified Antifa as an idea, and not malicious.
Thanks for taking the time to type out your thoughts.
I do recognize that violent ideas can become violent actions.
But there is no equivalence between racist groups like KKK and Proud Boys and the Antifa and BLM violence. They are factually not equal nor should they be considered equal.
Both Antifa and BLM folks have very real body counts, harm to others, harm to property.
Proud Boys got into a scuffle when they were attacked by AntiFa folks. That's it.
BLM and AntiFa folks are literal dangers to society. Very real and tangible dangers. Now. In the present. KKK and Proud Boys are not. You are correct to point out that their ideas MIGHT result in violence from them in the future, however. But they are definitely not equal groups. This is the US: you can believe and preach ideas that most people don't agree with as long as those ideas are not calls to violence.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Thanks for taking the time to type out your thoughts.I do recognize that violent ideas can become violent actions.
But there is no equivalence between racist groups like KKK and Proud Boys and the Antifa and BLM violence. They are factually not equal nor should they be considered equal.
Both Antifa and BLM folks have very real body counts, harm to others, harm to property.
Proud Boys got into a scuffle when they were attacked by AntiFa folks. That's it.
BLM and AntiFa folks are literal dangers to society. Very real and tangible dangers. Now. In the present. KKK and Proud Boys are not. You are correct to point out that their ideas MIGHT result in violence from them in the future, however. But they are definitely not equal groups. This is the US: you can believe and preach ideas that most people don't agree with as long as those ideas are not calls to violence.
Big ups for a thought out response yo -
Here's where l struggle. I'd never be able to say a group is "worse" than someone like the KKK. With organizations like that, I have a hard time comparing the two of them evenly. Mainly because, they are very very separate entities as to what they stand for.
I know what the KKK stands for and believes in. I know what the Proud Boys stand for and believe in. To me, I can't look at an organization like those and be like "oh there are some bad seeds in there for sure but their heart is in the right place." Any violence done by them is done in a hateful way and their organization supports it. They have leadership. They have membership rituals. They have uniforms. It's silly racist cosplay really, but that's all legitimate. What the Proud Boys and groups like them are promoting and like, standing against - is what? White Guilt? White Genocide? They are upset white people don't get credit for being cool? Not even white people, really - white dudes?
Black Lives Matter is a group that doesn't have like, some sort of membership or initiation. I can just, be in it. That's literally all it takes. Does antifa have like an actual hierarchy? What do they believe in?
Violence in reaction to injustice is different to me from Violence in reaction to...whatever the proud boys are doing, or at least whatever their membership is doing with things like Unite the Right.
Their rhetoric, their targeting, all of that shit IS dangerous. Maybe not to store windows at this point, or our local Applebee's or something, but that kind of hate mongering sure is.
I can disavow violence for the sake of violence absolutely - and I'm sure there are people who align themselves on progressive sides who join for the sake of chaos. But I know far more people who are supportive of these movements (and they are more movements than some outright society or group) as a response to horrible and sad events.
That may all sound stupid to some, maybe I just can't word it correctly at this point, but I'm trying.
**edit**:
It's important to note that Proud Boys leadership and it's members DIRECTLY promote violence.
Trump cannot do this:
Originally posted by Quincy
Why is it so hard for Trump to just be like "**** them kids?"
For the same reason conservatives on KMC do this:
Originally posted by Quincy
We (and I'm being generous here as a collective "we" at KMC) tend to weaken our own positions by refusing to give an inch, by calling the other side shittier. But like, what do you as the individual believe?
Because they support it, be it tacitly or overtly.
Originally posted by Quincy
Big ups for a thought out response yo -Here's where l struggle. I'd never be able to say a group is "worse" than someone like the KKK.
I'm in Oklahoma. There are some of those folks around here. Every single one I've seen is always a fat slob. They really are harmless.
KKK used to kill people based on their organizational goals, though. They were a threat. They were a danger. But not today.
Originally posted by Quincy
I know what the KKK stands for and believes in. I know what the Proud Boys stand for and believe in. To me, I can't look at an organization like those and be like "oh there are some bad seeds in there for sure but their heart is in the right place." Any violence done by them is done in a hateful way and their organization supports it. They have leadership. They have membership rituals. They have uniforms. It's silly racist cosplay really, but that's all legitimate. What the Proud Boys and groups like them are promoting and like, standing against - is what? White Guilt? White Genocide? They are upset white people don't get credit for being cool? Not even white people, really - white dudes?
This is fair and I highly doubt any reasonable person would disagree. AntiFa likely has some genuinely good folks in it. Sure, there are literally thousands of atrocious giant pieces of shit in the loose org. Not so much with BLM. At their core, BLM has harmful and dishonest beliefs.
Originally posted by Quincy
Violence in reaction to injustice is different to me from Violence in reaction to...whatever the proud boys are doing, or at least whatever their membership is doing with things like Unite the Right.
But here's the problem with both of those orgs: they preach that they are against violence and racism while...being violent and racist.
Originally posted by Quincy
I can disavow violence for the sake of violence absolutely - and I'm sure there are people who align themselves on progressive sides who join for the sake of chaos. But I know far more people who are supportive of these movements (and they are more movements than some outright society or group) as a response to horrible and sad events.That may all sound stupid to some, maybe I just can't word it correctly at this point, but I'm trying.
Nah, it's reasonable. But, fundamentally, I disagree with BLM's and AntiFa's need to exist in the US, at all. They are fighting statistical ghosts. Things that are almost completely non-existent such that a rounding error at 2 decimal places eliminates the entire original purpose of their exist. It's just a massive SJW, virtue signaling, circle jerk that doesn't actually address any real problems or improve society.
Originally posted by Quincy
**edit**:It's important to note that Proud Boys leadership and it's members DIRECTLY promote violence.
When it comes to protecting themselves against their attackers? Yes. And they should. I support that, as well. Kill them all, if necessary. Let the bodies pile to the sky.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm in Oklahoma. There are some of those folks around here. Every single one I've seen is always a fat slob. They really are harmless.KKK used to kill people based on their organizational goals, though. They were a threat. They were a danger. But not today.
I'd have to imagine your sample size of Oklahoman (Oklahamoan? Okie-doken?) Proud Boys probably isn't a large enough sample size to lead anyone to feel that The Proud Boys in general are harmless. Tubby boys shoveling mesquite aside.
Just like, in broad terms, do you feel like The KKK is not a threat? Like, to who? Do you think a black man would say the same thing? This is a strange route and I'm not sure either one of us can be like "why worry about the KKK? They aren't...harming anyone?" Like you and I both know that to be harmful does not just mean physically hurting people.
Originally posted by dadudemon
This is fair and I highly doubt any reasonable person would disagree. AntiFa likely has some genuinely good folks in it. Sure, there are literally thousands of atrocious giant pieces of shit in the loose org. Not so much with BLM. At their core, BLM has harmful and dishonest beliefs.But here's the problem with both of those orgs: they preach that they are against violence and racism while...being violent and racist.
Nah, it's reasonable. But, fundamentally, I disagree with BLM's and AntiFa's need to exist in the US, at all. They are fighting statistical ghosts. Things that are almost completely non-existent such that a rounding error at 2 decimal places eliminates the entire original purpose of their exist. It's just a massive SJW, virtue signaling, circle jerk that doesn't actually address any real problems or improve society.
When it comes to protecting themselves against their attackers? Yes. And they should. I support that, as well. Kill them all, if necessary. Let the bodies pile to the sky.
On the subject of beliefs, what are BLM beliefs? When I see someone wearing a "Black Lives Matter" shirt, what should I think they "REALLY" believe? And I mean this in a genuine way. To me, it seems to be a message of positivity. I don't know who (if there are any) leaders of BLM, not like the Grand Wizards or Gavin Mckinnis are leaders of their organizations. Does BLM have some sort of vetting process? So can we really say who is actually a member or not? Genuine question.
The Proud Boys however, are open about their desire for violence. Mcinnis has stated he wants violence, he craves for it. The organization is opposed to feminism and believes that women should be subservient to men. They are also kind of dumb and all get a really lame looking ed hardy style tattoo, and tell each other not to jack off unless there's a woman nearby or some shit? I don't know they are ****ing weird.
I can't really argue with you over your belief that the organization of BLM and Antifa shouldn't exist in the first place. I imagine you must think the same thing of Proud Boys and KKK (of which I DO agree, those two organizations should definitely not exist)
But I also won't ever write off something as large as this movement and assume it's all Virtue Signaling. Maybe for someone just putting up a tweet or blacking out their instagram feed, sure. But I know this affects people beyond the need to virtue signal. Man what a weird term. But hey, I believe in Social Justice so, big old shrug.
Why do we have to equate one to the other. Can't they be separate questions? Can't Trump say "**** the proud boys, and **** antifa! **** violence!" but you know, in an edited way. None of this half measure shit. It's weak willed.
Originally posted by Quincyi don't normally read long posts, but your one here is an exception. My thoughts almost exactly. 👆 Top notch!
I'd have to imagine your sample size of Oklahoman (Oklahamoan? Okie-doken?) Proud Boys probably isn't a large enough sample size to lead anyone to feel that The Proud Boys in general are harmless. Tubby boys shoveling mesquite aside.Just like, in broad terms, do you feel like The KKK is not a threat? Like, to who? Do you think a black man would say the same thing? This is a strange route and I'm not sure either one of us can be like "why worry about the KKK? They aren't...harming anyone?" Like you and I both know that to be harmful does not just mean physically hurting people.
On the subject of beliefs, what are BLM beliefs? When I see someone wearing a "Black Lives Matter" shirt, what should I think they "REALLY" believe? And I mean this in a genuine way. To me, it seems to be a message of positivity. I don't know who (if there are any) leaders of BLM, not like the Grand Wizards or Gavin Mckinnis are leaders of their organizations. Does BLM have some sort of vetting process? So can we really say who is actually a member or not? Genuine question.
The Proud Boys however, are open about their desire for violence. Mcinnis has stated he wants violence, he craves for it. The organization is opposed to feminism and believes that women should be subservient to men. They are also kind of dumb and all get a really lame looking ed hardy style tattoo, and tell each other not to jack off unless there's a woman nearby or some shit? I don't know they are ****ing weird.
I can't really argue with you over your belief that the organization of BLM and Antifa shouldn't exist in the first place. I imagine you must think the same thing of Proud Boys and KKK (of which I DO agree, those two organizations should definitely not exist)
But I also won't ever write off something as large as this movement and assume it's all Virtue Signaling. Maybe for someone just putting up a tweet or blacking out their instagram feed, sure. But I know this affects people beyond the need to virtue signal. Man what a weird term. But hey, I believe in Social Justice so, big old shrug.
Why do we have to equate one to the other. Can't they be separate questions? Can't Trump say "**** the proud boys, and **** antifa! **** violence!" but you know, in an edited way. None of this half measure shit. It's weak willed.