ST Luke vs. Snoke and Kylo Ren

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Its also speculation that Kylo would have been ragdolled as easily by Snoke as Rey was.

Kylo isnt Rey. Hes far more dangerous an opponent according to Luke in the TLJ comic. Hes been trained for over a decade, and he outright beat Rey in TROS.

But yeah I agree Luke would own him.

Rey stalemated Kylo in a Force tug of war in TLJ. Same thing happened in ROS with the ship. Snoke casually put Kylo in his place with a simple burst of lightning. There's no evidence to suggest Kylo can defend himself against Snoke.

It's basic scaling. Snoke is suggested to be in the same tier as ROTJ Sidious. ESB Sidious dominated Vader with the Force. We know Luke is implied to be stronger than Snoke as Snoke as outright afraid of him. We also know that Kylo is sub-Vader level. If Luke is equal to or superior to ROTJ Sidious and Kylo is "no Vader" then what exactly is stopping Luke from dispatching Kylo with the Force?

Based on that and Luke's considerably superior lightsaber dueling skills there's no reason at all to think Luke won't be able to dispose of Kylo within a few seconds.

Just want to remind you:

The ROS novelization confirmed that Kylo was overpowering Rey in their tug of war over the shuttle.

Luke says that Kylo is still far more powerful than Rey in the TLJ novelization.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Rey stalemated Kylo in a Force tug of war in TLJ. Same thing happened in ROS with the ship. Snoke casually put Kylo in his place with a simple burst of lightning. There's no evidence to suggest Kylo can defend himself against Snoke.

It's basic scaling. Snoke is suggested to be in the same tier as ROTJ Sidious. ESB Sidious dominated Vader with the Force. We know Luke is implied to be stronger than Snoke as Snoke as outright afraid of him. We also know that Kylo is sub-Vader level. If Luke is equal to or superior to ROTJ Sidious and Kylo is "no Vader" then what exactly is stopping Luke from dispatching Kylo with the Force?

Based on that and Luke's considerably superior lightsaber dueling skills there's no reason at all to think Luke won't be able to dispose of Kylo within a few seconds.

That would be basic scaling if Rey had any significant training whatsoever at that point and if there was no Dyad. But she had hardly a few lessons and no real time to hone her abilities, so theres no reason to think her mastery of defending against force attacks would be equal to Kylos.

I dont see the relevance of repeatedly bringing up the lightning shot when he wasnt prepared for that. And had no opportunity to attack back. May I remind you Palpatine KOd Yoda with a blast of force lightning before they properly tested their powers against each other.

We do know though Rey and Kylo have a Dyad, and that due to the Dyad she has proven herself multiple times attack Kylo back the way he attacks her, or fight alongside him reflecting his moves.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Just want to remind you:

The ROS novelization confirmed that Kylo was overpowering Rey in their tug of war over the shuttle.

Luke says that Kylo is still far more powerful than Rey in the TLJ novelization.

Yep 👆

Also the Saber moved closer to him when they were both pulling against it. And that Saber naturally calls to her (remember when he tried to lift it in TFA, but it went flying to her instead).

The Dyad amplifies Kylo Ren's strength as well. Luke is just blatantly wrong if he's referring to purely force power, all out power is a different story though, which could be what Luke is referring to.

The Dyad lets them reflect each other moves. That will obviously benefit the one without training more. As she has no moves or mastery of her own.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Just want to remind you:

The ROS novelization confirmed that Kylo was overpowering Rey in their tug of war over the shuttle.

Luke says that Kylo is still far more powerful than Rey in the TLJ novelization.

I couldn't care less about the novel. The movie shows a different picture. Even if he was overpowering her it was with extreme effort, so they're peers in Force strength no matter how you look at it. Actually, Rey is better with the Force because she has far less training and she can do things he cannot (heal & lightning). There's nothing to suggest Kylo would fare any better than Rey against Snoke.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That would be basic scaling if Rey had any significant training whatsoever at that point and if there was no Dyad. But she had hardly a few lessons and no real time to hone her abilities, so theres no reason to think her mastery of defending against force attacks would be equal to Kylos.

I dont see the relevance of repeatedly bringing up the lightning shot when he wasnt prepared for that. And had no opportunity to attack back. May I remind you Palpatine KOd Yoda with a blast of force lightning before they properly tested their powers against each other.

We do know though Rey and Kylo have a Dyad, and that due to the Dyad she has proven herself multiple times attack Kylo back the way he attacks her, or fight alongside him reflecting his moves.

Kind of irrelevant to the point becuase Kylo was in the room when Rey was getting ragdolled and she had the full benefit of the dyad meme at that point.

That's a completely different situation. Yoda was being arrogant, which allowed the Emperor to catch him, but Sidious and Yoda are peers. Kylo and Snoke are definitely not peers, otherwise Kylo wouldn't have to use trickery to kill Snoke. And it's disingenuous to say Kylo was not ready for it because he was being defiant. He knew Snoke would try to punish him for it.

Great. This has nothing to do with my point that Luke >/= ROTJ Sidious or that Kylo < Vader, however, so how does Kylo avoid getting dominated like Vader was?

Ok so you’re ignoring facts, got it 👆

No, I'm not. Movies > books. You and Thor are doing your best to ignore the facts that Kylo is sub-Vader level and Luke is a peer to Sidious, however.

They just gain enough others moves no? I don't see how it gives Rey anymore strength, but it shouldn't matter anyway. Rey is in close proximity to Kylo, she'd be recieving the power of the dyad and she still gets ragdolled.

The dyad only amps them when they fight in unison, not sure where this idea that they’re amped whenever they’re in proximity of each other came from?

The novels and Star Wars.com only mention the dyad amping them 3 times:
1) When Rey receives Kylo’s training from their mind link
2) When they fight the Praetorian Guards
3) When they fight the KoR and Palpatine’s guards

If you want to be believe that it amps them any other time that’s fine, but that’s just speculation

So neither of them are recieving power boosts during their tug of war?

Not during their ROS tug of war. Im not sure what the novel says about the TLJ tug of war over the saber.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
The dyad only amps them when they fight in unison, not sure where this idea that they’re amped whenever they’re in proximity of each other came from?

The novels and Star Wars.com only mention the dyad amping them 3 times:
1) When Rey receives Kylo’s training from their mind link
2) When they fight the Praetorian Guards
3) When they fight the KoR and Palpatine’s guards

If you want to be believe that it amps them any other time that’s fine, but that’s just speculation

Probably, yeah.

I doubt it amps them when they aren’t working as a team though.

Hmm

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
Probably, yeah.

I doubt it amps them when they aren’t working as a team though.

Because more recent sources, like The Star Wars Book, make no mention of the dyad amping their powers.

For example, this excerpt(which uses the same source pic as the VD, for what it's worth), merely states that Rey and Kylo were "sensing each other's next moves" whilst fighting the PG:
https://ibb.co/sqPdCBK

And these excerpts, which list all of the dyad abilities Kylo and Rey displayed, also make no mention of their powers being amplified by it:
https://ibb.co/PQPjpqm
https://ibb.co/cyGT2tC
https://ibb.co/sm3Tpb7
-See and feel what the other is experiencing.
-Pass objects back and forth over great distances via the Force.
-Use Force-healing.
-Communicate across vast distances.
-And of course, acting as an optimal snack to revivify Palpatine's broken body.

So I'm not even confident that the dyad was amping them at all anymore... RoS is such a messy clusterf*ck.

Yeah it’s pretty unclear. From what I’ve read it only seems to do the things you listed. The ROS novel just says they were able to sense what eachother were doing during their fight with the KoR and Palpatine’s guards. So I don’t think that the dyad literally amped their powers or anything like that. (Except of course how Rey downloaded Kylo’s training)

Mirroring each others moves is what I was getting at when I said reflecting.

And them sensing each others next move seems to go hand in hand with that idea.

As for amplifying, I thought that was sort of implied when Palpatine absorbs the power of the Dyad which was presumably much more power than absorbing each of them separately.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
As for amplifying, I thought that was sort of implied when Palpatine absorbs the power of the Dyad which was presumably much more power than absorbing each of them separately.

Granted, Palpatine absorbed their power as well, but the super-duper dyad life force(which, yes, was exponentially greater than what they could have produced individually) is what actually healed/revivified his body.

So I still don't know if that equates to the dyad amping their overall Force powers. /shrug