Originally posted by StoicThe Ultimate Nullifier as we know is capable of easily wiping out a multiverse, because it too is not limited to operating within the confines of a single universe. Does that make it more powerful than the Infinity Gauntlet? Well yes and no.
Yes because it can wipe out multiple universes because it's effects can reach further as it has no confining borders. No, because within the native universe that the Infinity Gauntlet is permited to operate in, it is a weaker power.
I feel like that's a great assessment of the Infinity Gauntlet.
The Infinity Gauntlet is indeed a universal force. With it you can control and overwrite its native universe, no matter what power level you're dealing with. Which means that you can best abstracts like Galactus and Eternity or even objects (Ultimate Nullifier) and people (Scarlet Witch at her peak), who have the ability to affect other universes as well.
At the same time the 616 Infinity Gauntlet can't... for example roast Spider-Ham in Marvels furry universe. And it also can't compete with multiversal beings, who are the same in every universe – such as the Living Tribunal.
The UN has far greater direct, destructive capacity than the IG. In that respect its far more powerful. But the IG beats it in terms of versatility.
The IG gives virtual omnipotence within its native universe, but canon has shown that in Marvel there are levels of infinity and other powers have been shown capable of overpowering the IG or are stated by Marvel to be more powerful than it. So Stoics point that other objects have more range but in a universe the IG is top dog and can outdo some multiversal reaching powers just isnt true in all circumstances.
Originally posted by Neon1234
The UN was only a Universal weapon when the IG controlled its energies.
Whilst thats definitely true, given the nature of retcons we're supposed to read that old story as if the UN has always had multiversal affecting capability.
But the key point people need to get in their heads is just because it has that capacity, doesnt mean that every single time its used that its a multiversal power blast.
Its all dependent on what the user wants destroyed and it is stated flat out on panel that Quasar was specifically targetting just Magus.
So these other posters cant say oh the UN is capable of destroying universes and restting multiverses, the IG re-directed its energies, therefore the IG is beyond universal level.
The energies involved were different given the intended target.
Its crazy that these posters would overlook that point 😄
Who did you see defeat the Infinity Gauntlet within it's native universe? The LT didn't defeat it, Adam Warlock's humane nature conceded to the LT, because he had no desire to destroy everything to find out which of them was more powerful.
TOAA is above the entire Phoenix Force, so that becomes irrelevant.
God Emperor Doom was operating within an unstable reality, one in which Lord Chaos and Master Order was able to easily defeat the Living Tribunal, and in turn be defeated by Lifebringer Galactus. God Emperor Doom may have been defeated within a stable reality by the Infinity Gauntlet. This is inconclusive.
And to end it, I wasn't being disrespectful, I am assuming that you have evidence to support the idea that the Phoenix Force was ever viewed as an omnipotent force, as I have yet to see it challenge an omnipotent force. Power alone does not make one omnipotent. That's like calling World Forger, Darkseid, or the Anti Monitor omnipotent, because they have a level of power. This was also stated because of your upcoming battlezone to prove this.
Originally posted by Stoic
Who did you see defeat the Infinity Gauntlet within it's native universe? The LT didn't defeat it, Adam Warlock's humane nature conceded to the LT, because he had no desire to destroy everything to find out which of them was more powerful.TOAA is above the entire Phoenix Force, so that becomes irrelevant.
God Emperor Doom was operating within an unstable reality, one in which Lord Chaos and Master Order was able to easily defeat the Living Tribunal, and in turn be defeated by Lifebringer Galactus. God Emperor Doom may have been defeated within a stable reality by the Infinity Gauntlet. This is inconclusive.
And to end it, I wasn't being disrespectful, I am assuming that you have evidence to support the idea that the Phoenix Force was ever viewed as an omnipotent force, as I have yet to see it challenge an omnipotent force. Power alone does not make one omnipotent. That's like calling World Forger, Darkseid, or the Anti Monitor omnipotent, because they have a level of power. This was also stated because of your upcoming battlezone to prove this.
I dont want to sabotage my Battlezone.
All im going to say is it is supposition to say that the IG is omnipotent within a reality, when current continuity states that it is a universal power and users who have wielded it such have Thanos have named other powers within a reality as more powerful than it based off of their firsthand experience. For example the HOTI. Therefore you have no credible line of argument to say otherwise.
Your theory that within a reality IG is omnipotent is therefore conclusively false.
The question at hand here is power, not who would win in a fight. You can hypothesize alll you want about the latter, but in terms of power rankings the IG is outclassed by anything that has demonstrated beyond universal feats or universal feats with a far greater ease than anything done by an IG user.
Originally posted by StoicGod Emperor Doom was operating within an unstable reality, one in which Lord Chaos and Master Order was able to easily defeat the Living Tribunal, and in turn be defeated by Lifebringer Galactus. God Emperor Doom may have been defeated within a stable reality by the Infinity Gauntlet. This is inconclusive.
The entities of the universe that acted as functions of the universe were in disarray and of undefined power rankings NOT God Doom whose power stemmed from beyond the multiverse and not the IG which was a tool and not a function of the universal body. So again this is supposition
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont want to sabotage my Battlezone.All im going to say is it is supposition to say that the IG is omnipotent within a reality, when current continuity states that it is a universal power and users who have wielded it such have Thanos have named other powers within a reality as more powerful than it [B]based off of their firsthand experience
. For example the HOTI. Therefore you have no credible line of argument to say otherwise.Your theory that within a reality IG is omnipotent is therefore conclusively false.
The question at hand here is power, not who would win in a fight. You can hypothesize alll you want about the latter, but in terms of power rankings the IG is outclassed by anything that has demonstrated beyond universal feats or universal feats with a far greater ease than anything done by an IG user. [/B]
The HOTI? Was The End even a canon source? I was told that that story was non canon? Also, you've reached to the near end of the rung to call up names that are likely well above the Phoenix Force and it's various hosts as well. Did you notice what you've been doing? Honest question. There simply aren't that many entities within the Marvel omniverse that would claim or be able to display more power than the Infinity Gauntlet. Now you can be as contrary to this fact as you'd like, but it won't change the fact that the IG is a very powerful artifact within it's native universe. I still have yet to see a showing that shows the Phoenix Force in combat with a being on the IG's level. Has this ever happened? I do recall them saying that the Dragon of Kunlun outmatched the Phoenix though. Do you have any opinions on that?
Originally posted by Stoic
The HOTI? Was The End even a canon source? I was told that that story was non canon?
Long ago Stoic.
It was referenced in Thanos' handbook 15 years ago.
Originally posted by Stoic
Also, you've reached to the near end of the rung to call up names that are likely well above the Phoenix Force and it's various hosts as well. Did you notice what you've been doing? Honest question. There simply aren't that many entities within the Marvel omniverse that would claim or be able to display more power than the Infinity Gauntlet. Now you can be as contrary to this fact as you'd like, but it won't change the fact that the IG is a very powerful artifact within it's native universe.
Would it not be logical to look at the top end of the hierarchy to deal with one of the most powerful artifacts in Marvel comics? 😕
I am not and never have disagreed with the IG being top tier power wise, this paragraph of yours suggests you've misinterpreted me somewhere down the line.
I simply do not believe it is omnipotent within a reality. Nowhere has it been stated that a feature of its power is that in its native reality nothing can beat it. That's your supposition.
What puts it above the likes of Eternity is less sheer power and more that Eternity has a duty of care to reality. Theres only so much power he can invest in an Mbody, only so far he can go in a battle without compromising his very being that hes trying to safeguard in the 1st place. Thanos has no such role and has no such qualms.
The fact that Thanos' crowning achievement with the IGs power was to to make himself Eternity makes that point very clear.
The IG makes you an irresponsible Eternity lol
Originally posted by Stoic
I still have yet to see a showing that shows the Phoenix Force in combat with a being on the IG's level. Has this ever happened?
You do not compose a cosmic hierarchy based solely on combat feats. Thats absurd. These are cosmic beings, not members of a crime-fighting superhero team who routinely engage in fisticuffs. Therefore as logic and common sense dictate you adjust your evaluation methods accordingly.
Hierarchies for cosmic beings are based on comparative power displays. This thread is about power, please acknowledge that in your line of argument. If you did you would be doing a lot less talking right now.
Theres a reason why Neon was in a position to say the following:
Originally posted by Neon1234
IG is definitely Universal, there's no doubt about that.Phoenix appears to be above that based on what GS has posted.
He read.
Please please dont do the frustrating thing and jump in a thread with an opposing argument thats already been addressed expecting posters to regurgitate what has already been covered. Im no shortcut. Read.
Any being who displays greater than universal power, or universal power with a greater control and ease than anything displayed by the IG should be placed above it in the hierarchy.
A discussion about who you think would win in a round of fisticuffs is a different story.
Originally posted by Stoic
I do recall them saying that the Dragon of Kunlun outmatched the Phoenix though. Do you have any opinions on that?
and I recall Thanos with the IG getting stomped by Galactus 😕
who got flatlined by Thor a few months ago
if i was to use the ABC logic you were using with regards to the Ultimate Nullifier id be saying Thors greater than the IG. See how absurd that line of thinking is?
There has never been an on panel battle between the Phoenix Force and the Dragon of Kunlun. It was stated in Avengers Vs Xmen 10 to just be a legend. So my thoughts are its an unhelpful reference.
Just to summarize, the IG is one of the most powerful artifacts in Marvel. Wielders of this device become a top tier power within the reality the IGs native to.
Nowhere is it canon that the IG is unbeatable when within its reality. That is supposition. On panel users of the IG have stated there are greater powers than it.
Whilst in its native reality the IG broke trying to stop another universe crashing into 616 effectively highlighting its limitations.
Any being that wields multiversal power, or has displayed universal power at a far greater level of control and ease than the IG has ever shown, should be placed above it in the hierarchy.
I will say no more on this issue.
Battlezone 11th Jan 😮💨
Well so far when it comes to the Phoenix, or the Phoenix Force, as I mentioned earlier, I have yet to see it in direct combat, and because of that I would not immediately jump to the conclusion that it was somehow more powerful than the Infinity Gauntlet at it's best when not jobbing to the likes of Galactus. We've all seen how well Galactus and the other Cosmic Abstracts did against Thanos.
This place is a battle board. Battle boards use combat feats and/or power stunts to allow for us to judge the characters. I have yet to see the Phoenix battle anyone on the level of an Infinity Gauntlet wielder. You keep telling me what to do, while also telling to refrain from doing the exact same thing that you've been doing all along concerning ABC logic. Look into a mirror my guy. As I said, I will be watching the Battlezone match to learn anything that I may have missed. Until then I'm backing off as I made my reasons for questioning your opinion of the Phoenix Force abundantly clear. It's up to you if you're going to continue being apprehensive on the subject, or simply put up the evidence to support your stance on the date of your BZ match.
Originally posted by Stoic
Well so far when it comes to the Phoenix, or the Phoenix Force, as I mentioned earlier, I have yet to see it in direct combat, and because of that I would not immediately jump to the conclusion that it was somehow more powerful than the Infinity Gauntlet at it's best when not jobbing to the likes of Galactus. We've all seen how well Galactus and the other Cosmic Abstracts did against Thanos.This place is a battle board. Battle boards use combat feats and/or power stunts to allow for us to judge the characters. I have yet to see the Phoenix battle anyone on the level of an Infinity Gauntlet wielder. You keep telling me what to do, while also telling to refrain from doing the exact same thing that you've been doing all along concerning ABC logic. Look into a mirror my guy. As I said, I will be watching the Battlezone match to learn anything that I may have missed. Until then I'm backing off as I made my reasons for questioning your opinion of the Phoenix Force abundantly clear. It's up to you if you're going to continue being apprehensive on the subject, or simply put up the evidence to support your stance on the date of your BZ match.
Ive already said all that needs to be said on this matter.
Your reply does not necessitate any further statement than what was said in our previous exchange.
What you feel you need to see does not determine what i need to provide to prove my point. Your personal satisfaction does not concern me.
Enjoy the battlezone 👆