Snoke vs. Count Dooku

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Well no. I personally think the most likely option is that ROS Sidious was more powerful then ROTJ Sidious to begin with, which is why Snoke couldn't be used as a vessel.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
But I still think Snoke couldn't be used because ROS Sidious was more powerful then he was in ROTJ. 😛

I think its much more likely that Snoke was never Sidious equal in the first place. Not OT Palpatine or PT Sidious.

I mean how much potential does Rey have without calling on the power of all the Jedi or all the Sith? Potential to be equal to OT Palpatine?

Ergo if Snoke was even close to that level he would have been a perfectly suitable vessel for Palps IMHO.

At least for the interim.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
That all hinges on when Sidious might have gained the power of all the Sith.

As we discussed on the previous pages, though we don't know when Sidious was able to tap into the power of his predecessors, the novelization and website text make it clear that this is not a natural enhancement of Sheev's and merely a reservoir he can consciously, deliberately tap into.

I personally think it was after Endor (unless we get a big reveal soon) which is why I think ROS Sidious was more powerful then ROTJ Sidious.

If by TROS Sheev you mean the undead zombie we see for most of the film, Azronger made an extremely compelling case using substantial evidence to indicate that TROS Sheev is not more powerful than ROTJ Sheev... until the end of the movie.

Either way, though, what does this have to do with Sheev and Snoke? Snoke was created decades before TROS based on the available evidence and yet was still unable to serve as Sheev's meatsuit even then.

Regardless of how he actively used the power he had on hand, Sidious still was a "vessel" for all the Siths power. Pretty sure that quote was posted here.

So I still think we have to figure out when he became that vessel. Because its hard for me to think that ROS Sidious wouldn't have been more powerful then he was in ROTJ if he only started housing all those spirits and might after the latter.

That side of things still isn't quite clear to me

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Regardless of how he actively used the power he had on hand, Sidious still was a "vessel" for all the Siths power. Pretty sure that quote was posted here.

Right, but he became that "vessel for all the Sith's power" during his final clash with Rey, if you look at that quote.

So I still think we have to figure out when he became that vessel. Because its hard for me to think that ROS Sidious wouldn't have been more powerful then he was in ROTJ if he only started housing all those spirits and might after the latter.

That side of things still isn't quite clear to me

I'd encourage you to revisit Azronger's post, but the tl;dr of it is:
[list]
[*]Per The Star Wars Book, Sheev's Sith Eternal cultists were waiting for his "restoration to full power," indicating that he was not at full power. That's a fact that can't be ignored.
[*]Per multiple other sources, the dyad restored Sheev's body. That's also a fact that can't be ignored.
[*]Per TROS novelization and the StarWars.com website, Sheev was able to consciously borrow the power of all the Sith, though the jury's still out over whether there were literal Sith spirits involved.
[/list]
The only interpretation that reconciles all these facts is that [1] undead!Sheev was weaker than his previous iteration (thus the "restore to full power" quote from the Star Wars Book), likely because he couldn't manifest his full power through a rotting corpse, which is why he needed [2] the power of the dyad to restore his body. Then, in the final clash with Rey, [3] he manifests the power of all the Sith before him whereas she does the same with all the Jedi.

I'll have to go back through the novel but isn't it alluded to that Sidious was wielding all the Siths power before the dyad also? Because the SWBook only stated that the dyad renewed Sidious's body. It doesn't note that his body had to be renewed to act as a vessel in the first place.

So I feel like the raw power was still present in his undead body (just as it would have been if he body hopped) but maybe he couldn't use all of that power until he healed. Which means that if he hopped into an inferior clone he would have still had the same problem- you've got the power, but you can't access it in a shit vessel.

And I'm also pretty sure the novel states that dyad Sidious had absorbed the powers of Rey and Ben and added that to his own. Pretty sure it's Rey who makes that claim. Dunno if it still holds up though.

Still not seeing why a being on the level of OT Sidious would be a shit vessel, whereas Padawan Rey was a perfect one.

Maybe not a shit vessel, but not enough of a vessel.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Maybe not a shit vessel, but not enough of a vessel.

Why? You dont think OT Palpatine would be on the upper end of Reys potential?

Note even Vader never came close to OT Sheev.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
I'll have to go back through the novel but isn't it alluded to that Sidious was wielding all the Siths power before the dyad also? Because the SWBook only stated that the dyad renewed Sidious's body. It doesn't note that his body had to be renewed to act as a vessel in the first place.

So I feel like the raw power was still present in his undead body (just as it would have been if he body hopped) but maybe he couldn't use all of that power until he healed. Which means that if he hopped into an inferior clone he would have still had the same problem- you've got the power, but you can't access it in a shit vessel.

And I'm also pretty sure the novel states that dyad Sidious had absorbed the powers of Rey and Ben and added that to his own. Pretty sure it's Rey who makes that claim. Dunno if it still holds up though.

Seems like Palpatine believed Rey would be a perfect vessel for all the sith due to sharing his potential. So perhaps Sidious was able to draw on their power as of the OT, or how else would he come to the conclusion that Rey would be able to? However, it does seem like a power he has to consciously draw on, similar to how Anakin had to focus the power of Mortis through his body to control The Son and The Daughter. Both cases indicate a very unique status among all force users.

Either way, Palpatine's undead body was said to not be enough to hold the power that was carried over from his original body, which suggests he's weaker in his undead form. Azronger gave a quote that confirms he is weaker in his undead form. So if Snoke is confirmed to be weaker than undead Sheev, then that means he is weaker than OT Sheev. Right?

So why would the lack of detail regarding "all the sith" bit keep you from accepting that Snoke was never on par with ROTJ Palpatine?

Originally posted by Sheev
You're splitting hairs. I too have always agreed its possible that Snoke just wasn't powerful enough. All I have said is that other logical possibilities (like the genetic argument) exist.

But if you're saying that the genetic argument is indeed a possibility (even if you disagree with it), then we seem to agree.

So who wins: Dooku or Snoke?

@Dominis

Nothing suggest that undead Palpatine was less powerful than ROTJ Palpatine though. Just because the Palpatine clone was too weak to contain Palpatine’s consciousness doesn’t mean he’s less powerful. The body was decaying as a result of containing Palpatine’s immense power. So although the clone body is weak, the body is literally still containing the same power.

The quote Azronger provided saying he restored his full power doesn’t contradict this. “Full power” could have different meanings, it doesn’t necessarily mean his connection to the force was brought back to full power. If your body is a rotting mess then you’re obviously not at full power. So by restoring his body he was back at full power.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
@Dominis

Nothing suggest that undead Palpatine was less powerful than ROTJ Palpatine though. Just because the Palpatine clone was too weak to contain Palpatine’s consciousness doesn’t mean he’s less powerful. The body was decaying as a result of containing Palpatine’s immense power. So although the clone body is weak, the body is literally still containing the same power.

The quote Azronger provided saying he restored his full power doesn’t contradict this. “Full power” could have different meanings, it doesn’t necessarily mean his connection to the force was brought back to full power. If your body is a rotting mess then you’re obviously not at full power. So by restoring his body he was back at full power.

I agree.

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
@Dominis

Nothing suggest that undead Palpatine was less powerful than ROTJ Palpatine though. Just because the Palpatine clone was too weak to contain Palpatine’s consciousness doesn’t mean he’s less powerful. The body was decaying as a result of containing Palpatine’s immense power. So although the clone body is weak, the body is literally still containing the same power.

The quote Azronger provided saying he restored his full power doesn’t contradict this. “Full power” could have different meanings, it doesn’t necessarily mean his connection to the force was brought back to full power. If your body is a rotting mess then you’re obviously not at full power. So by restoring his body he was back at full power.

The first line and last two lines contradict each other.

Agreed. Prime, you're slipping back down the embankment of unenlightenment. Steady yourself, lean forward, and take our hands.

Azronger's quote explains Sheev's acolytes await "his restoration to full power." This means he's not at full power if they need to "wait" for him to be "restored" to full power. Note the phrase doesn't say "his restoration to full health." His power is diminished. That may be a product of his weakened body being unable to channel his power rather than the power itself being diminished, but it ultimately comes to the same conclusion: undead Sheev is unable to manifest the same level of power as his Endor self for one reason or another.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Agreed. Prime, you're slipping back down the embankment of unenlightenment. Steady yourself, lean forward, and take our hands.

Azronger's quote explains Sheev's acolytes await "his restoration to full power." This means he's not at full power if they need to "wait" for him to be "restored" to full power. Note the phrase doesn't say "his restoration to full health." His power is diminished. That may be a product of his weakened body being unable to channel his power rather than the power itself being diminished, but it ultimately comes to the same conclusion: undead Sheev is unable to manifest the same level of power as his Endor self for one reason or another.

I think that's what he meant. But he's wording it in a way so that it doesn't seem like he's fully agreeing lol.

👆

Originally posted by Dominis
So who wins: Dooku or Snoke?

A little more info...

Palpatine had told Kylo Ren that Rey had to die, but as she stood before the throne of the Sith, the truth of his motives became clear. Unseen voices chanted in the darkness as Palpatine gazed at his prize. Decades before this moment, as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, Sidious had murdered his teacher and taken all his knowledge of the Sith for himself.

In Rey, he hoped to find a willing accomplice to end his life in his decrepit form and permit his spirit to pass into her. Rey was just 20, young and in excellent physical shape, strong in the Force and skilled with a lightsaber. And while Palpatine's cloned body was dying and weak, his bloodline flowed through Rey, making her a perfect host.

With their souls fused inside her flesh -- not a dyad but an otherworldly and unnatural homage to their shared DNA -- Palpatine aimed to grant himself immortality, control of the Sith, and command over the galaxy once more, rising from the ashes of the Empire to be resurrected stronger than ever before.

Skywalker: A Family At War

not a dyad but an otherworldly and unnatural homage to their shared DNA

Great incest bits from this erotic fan fiction 👆

“With their souls”... is “their” referring to all the sith?