I agree with you.
The current scaling seems to be- dyad!Sidious>rotten clone!Sidious>ROTJ!Sidious=Snoke
We dont have any legit reason right now to think that Snoke was any less powerful then Luke said he was.
But even if Snoke was "only" as powerful as ROTS Sidious, that still puts Snoke on a much higher level then Dooku.
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sure we'll never know... RoS was a giant clusterf*ck that way, lol.My only point is that if we're going to nitpick why Palpatine didn't transfer his essence into Snoke, then it's only fair to nitpick why he didn't transfer his essence into Kylo. Because by ALL accounts, Kylo's power/potential = Rey's... Yet Palpatine still opted not to transfer his essence into Kylo, despite Rey(his equal) being considered the "perfect vessel."
That being said, I think it's reasonable to assume that Palpatine may not have been able to transfer his essence into just anyone... And perhaps that's why, massive deformities aside, the Snoke clones were considered failures: they simply were not capable of receiving his essence at all(like a phone without a SIM card.)
As mentioned: if Palps *would* have been capable of hopping into any Force-sensitive being he wanted(at any time), then he would have logically just allowed Kylo to strike him down(which he was fully prepared to do at the beginning of the film), and transferred his essence into Kylo's body... Because if Rey was the "perfect vessel", then Kylo should have theoretically been an optimal host as well.
...But that's obviously not what Palpatine wanted. So I think it's equally as possible that Kylo and Snoke simply may not have been capable of becoming "receptacles" for his "god-consciousness" at all. That could be why no attempt at proper essence-transfer was ever made on them. I mean, the novelization almost seems to indicate that, for the transfer to be successful, specific biological elements were required in the host body -- which would help explain why Rey(a Force-sensitive direct decedent of Palpatine's own bloodline, born through purely natural methods) was evidently the *only* possible vessel for him. But that's neither here nor there...
tl;dr
I don't think ABC logic(ie. "Snoke wasn't used as a vessel, therefore he must be inferior to RotJ Palpatine"😉 necessarily works here -- it doesn't seem that cut and dry to me. /shrug
I see.
With Kylo Ren tho, given that Palpatine never seemed interested in inhabiting Ren at all, despite him having more potential than even himself, just seemed to rule out Kylo Ren as being a special case entirely, which I just assumed had something to do with him being a Skywalker.
Whereas Snoke was a strandcast like Rey's father(only force sensitive and, well, deformed), created specifically for Palpatine to use as a vessel. And since the novel points out that Rey was the perfect vessel strong enough to hold his essence, unlike any of the strandcasts, it just seemed to me to imply that the strandcasts simply were not strong enough.
However, there may very well be another reason why he chose not to (or couldn't) inhabit Snoke, which is why I'm not depending solely on that to support my opinion that Snoke isn't = ROTJ Palpatine.
Snoke is confirmed to be weaker than undead Palpatine, who is most likely weaker than he was in ROTJ due to being stuck in a vessel that is unable to access the full extent of his power the way his original body could.
Originally posted by Galan007
Based on what facts, though?The VD states that after the events of RotJ, Luke sensed the "continued/growing presence of the dark side" within the Unknown Regions, and heard whispers of "a resurgent enemy from the past." That's why Luke started searching for the wayfinder/Exegol in the first place -- he was trying to figure out what was going on. But even IF Luke suspected that Palpatine was still alive, he was never stated to have sensed the presence of Palpatine himself... It was implied to be more of a generic disturbance in the Force, which puzzled Luke.
It's also strange because you'd think if Luke truly believed that Palpatine was alive, he'd devote ALL of his time/effort into tracking him down, and not give up his search the second the trail went cold. /shrug
But either way, an unconfirmed suspicion(at best) that Palpatine was alive doesn't diminish the power of Snoke.
I don't see how his note in the journal was "retconned" by anything released thus far, tbh.
Luke did seem to liken Snoke's power to that of Palpatine... And headcanon aside, nothing I've seen explicitly contradicts that assertion. /shrug
Based on TROS making it clear Palpatine was Snokes superior the whole time.
So we are to believe that Palpatine in his broken clone body > ROTJ Palpatine, simply to align what we know now with a single statement in Lukes journal written pre-TROS.
Not to mention Luke could just be wrong on that.
Originally posted by DominisBut then you have the excerpt from the novel, where Palpatine states that he had made the very same proposal to Luke in RotJ that he was making to Rey in RoS(ie. "strike me down, my essence will pass into you, etc."😉 So IF Palpatine was indeed capable of transferring his essence into Luke, then he should have certainly been able to hop into Kylo as well.
With Kylo Ren tho, given that Palpatine never seemed interested in inhabiting Ren at all, despite him having more potential than even himself, just seemed to rule out Kylo Ren as being a special case entirely, which I just assumed had something to do with him being a Skywalker.
Jfc. Forgot how much of a mess this novel is, lol.
Originally posted by DominisRight, but we know that Snoke was also an extremely mutated/deformed strandcast, so that could be why he was unusable as a vessel for Palpatine.
Whereas Snoke was a strandcast like Rey's father(only force sensitive and, well, deformed), created specifically for Palpatine to use as a vessel. And since the novel points out that Rey was the perfect vessel strong enough to hold his essence, unlike any of the strandcasts, it just seemed to me to imply that the strandcasts simply were not strong enough.
Almost seemed like very precise genetic elements had to be in place in order for Palpatine to successfully transfer his essence into a host body. Either that, or he was only willing to hop into a "perfect" vessel because he didn't want to risk being displeased with a less-than-perfect host body, and risk having to go through the transference ritual again later on.
In this case, Palpatine knew that a "perfect" vessel(ie. Rey) was out there, and also knew that he had enough time to wait for her to surface... Why settle for a crippled leper if you don't absolutely HAVE to? 😛
Originally posted by DominisYeah, it's hard to say because we don't know one way or the other.
Snoke is confirmed to be weaker than undead Palpatine, who is most likely weaker than he was in ROTJ due to being stuck in a vessel that is unable to access the full extent of his power the way his original body could.
I personally think the undead Palpatine clone's power was > what it was during RotJ, but was obviously weaker physically.
...But that's mainly because it's hard for me to imagine Palpatine's power(in any state) not increasing to some extent over the course of decadeS. /shrug
Originally posted by Darth ThorDo we have a reason to believe that Palpatine's power had decreased, simply because his physical body was frail?
Based on TROS making it clear Palpatine was Snokes superior the whole time.So we are to believe that Palpatine in his broken clone body > ROTJ Palpatine, simply to align what we know now with a single statement in Lukes journal written pre-TROS.
Not to mention Luke could just be wrong on that.
It's simple.
Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. This should be referring to ROTJ Sidious, since that's the last time Luke had personally encountered and sensed him.
So Snoke = ROTJ Sidious in power.
Then Snoke himself later said that he respected and FEARED Luke. Snoke would not FEAR a being who was weaker then himself.
So ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.
Then when Kylo sensed the power of undead Sidious, he stated it was beyond anything he had ever encountered before.
So undead Sidious>ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.
Because the deteriorated state of his body doesn't mean he had less power then before. Physical appearance and power are two different things.
Kylo even states that the cloud of darkness swelling around undead Sidious "belied any sense of frailty".
To be honest, I'm not even sure if Sidious actually became more powerful after absorbing the dyad from Rey and Ben. I think his body was just restored. So he basically had the same power as before, but his body had been healed and no longer needed life support.
Originally posted by Sheev
Because the deteriorated state of his body doesn't mean he had less power then before. Physical appearance and power are two different things.Kylo even states that the cloud of darkness swelling around undead Sidious "belied any sense of frailty".
Yeah but why would any of that mean hes substantially more powerful to the point where ROTJ Sidious (the guy who casually owns Vader) could now just be his lackey ?
Im guessing Snoke was intended to be Palpatines equal until they retconned shit so that Palpatine was still alive and Snoke his lackey.
That aside, theres just so many reasons why Luke could have been wrong given the mystery around Snoke and how much of his powers were his own, and how much of what he was doing was actually Palpatine. And probably never feeling ROTJ Palpatines full power in the first place.
And if Luke didnt know Palpatine was alive, then hes clearly not all knowing despite him talking to Force Ghosts.
Because Luke's journal note isn't retconned just because you don't think it fits?
Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. Kylo sensed that undead Sidious's power was greater then anything he'd ever experienced.
So based on 2 canon pieces of info, undead Sidious > Snoke = ROTJ Sidious.
There's also no reason to think that Sidious couldn't have become more powerful in the 30 years between ROTJ and ROS, just because his body was a wreck. Sure you could say that becoming more powerful might have sped up the deterioration process of his clone body, but we don't know to what extent.
Like if Sidious's power was a 10 in ROTJ when he essence transferred, and his power increased to a 15 by ROS, it's impossible to say how much that added power would have progressed his rotting. Hell, maybe the life support goop that was being pumped into him on Exegol was able to help compensate for the added deterioration he might have been experiencing due to his power increasing?
What I'm saying is- we really don't have any reason at all to think his power had decreased, just because of the state of his clone body. Like I said before- physical appearance and power are two different things.
Originally posted by Sheev
It's simple.Luke indicated that Snoke's power was equal to Sidious's. This should be referring to ROTJ Sidious, since that's the last time Luke had personally encountered and sensed him.
So Snoke = ROTJ Sidious in power.
Then Snoke himself later said that he respected and FEARED Luke. Snoke would not FEAR a being who was weaker then himself.
So ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.
Then when Kylo sensed the power of undead Sidious, he stated it was beyond anything he had ever encountered before.
So undead Sidious>ST Luke>Snoke=ROTJ Sidious.
Originally posted by SheevAgreed.
That seemed to be the original intent in the TFA novel for sure.But now it's a lot less clear WHEN exactly Snoke surfaced.
Because the RoS novelization seems to imply that Palpatine's heretics didn't start attempting to create additional clone strandcasts until after Palpatine had originally transferred his essence into the imperfect clone vessel on Exegol:
It was too soon. The secret place had not completed its preparations. The transfer was imperfect, and the cloned body wasn't enough [...] Because Palpatine was trapped in a broken, dying form.And per The Star Wars Book, we know for sure that Snoke is indeed classified as a "genetic strandcast", and is further defined as a "genetically engineered proxy for Sidious."The heretics of the Sith Eternal toiled, splicing genes, bolstering tissue, creating unnatural abominations in the hope that one of these strandcasts would succeed and become a worthy receptacle.
So in spite of the dialogue from the TFA novelization(wherein Snoke claims to have seen the Empire rise and fall), it would now *seem* as though he was created at some point in the post-RotJ era.