Snoke vs. Count Dooku

Originally posted by Darthadi
I would say that Sheev's mindset about the Skywalkers changed between ROTJ and TROS.

In fact, from Palpatine's POV I feel like possessing a Skywalker(and subsequently creating a mockery of the hope they once stood for) would please him quite a bit. /shrug

Originally posted by Darthadi
It's also possible that the ritual might not work on Kylo because he wouldn't strike Sidious in pure hatred and more for pragmatic reasons.

I do wish we had more detail about Palpatine's essence transfer, though(namely what the actual requirements were.) Would make a lot of this SO much easier to discuss. ermm

Originally posted by Darthadi
Not to mention other factors like Kylo's superior mastery ,(compared with Rey) which could help resisting the essence transfer as well as the fact Kylo is not related by blood with Sheev.

But the genetic thing: that goes back to a theory of mine from earlier -- that perhaps Snoke simply couldn't be used as a vessel at all, because he was not a perfect/ideal replica of the original Palpatine bloodline. Rey, however, was.

Hence why Palpatine chose to wait for Rey specifically, and wasn't interested in any other potential hosts. /shrug

Originally posted by Darthadi
In TROS Sidious knew he only needed to wait a few hours/days to get Rey, so why risk trying to take over Kylo, when he ne needed him to bring Rey to Exegol.

The scene from RoS just illustrates what would have been *the* perfect opportunity to inhabit Kylo... But Palpatine still intentionally chose not to. Pretty hard to reconcile something like that, if Palpatine was indeed as desperate to find a host as some are saying.

Originally posted by Dominis
About that....
Was it actually meant to be taken that way, that Sidious also meant to inhabit Luke? After all, the proposal he makes to Rey, he also compares to his own ascension when he killed Plagueis, which didn't involve Plagueis body hopping.

Plus, he never even says anything about his spirit to Luke, he just says "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete" which is kinda the same proposal except without his spirit being involved.

Palpatine of course did not explicitly mention the essence transfer thing to Luke, because the concept hadn't even been conceived of back when RotJ was originally released... But per new canon, it seems like Palpatine's intent was the same with Luke in RotJ that it was with Rey in RoS: he wanted to make them his vessel.

Or at least, that's how I interpreted the passage. /shrug

------

That said, I'd much rather prefer to think that specific/"perfect" genetic elements from Palpatine's own bloodline were required in a potential host body for the transfer to be successful. That would explain why the vessel could *only* be Rey, and would further reconcile why Palpatine never tried to hop into the likes of Snoke(because his genetics were too f*cked up from the onset), or Kylo(because his genetics didn't stem from the Palpatine bloodline at all.)

...But unfortunately that isn't irrefutably provable either. 🙁

That Sheev [apparently?] never sought to possess Kylo doesn't actually explain his [apparent?] reluctance to possess one of his many Snoke copies.
[list]
[*]Per TROS lore, Kylo was being groomed as a Sith apprentice with Snoke as Sheev's proxy for Master
[*]Kylo is also tempestuous and often unpredictable and possessing him would involve luring Kylo to Exegol
[*]Unlike Kylo, Rey is a guaranteed optimal receptacle for Sheev's spirit due to identical genetic structure
[/list]

I understand why in TROS Sheev preferred to wait for Rey over Kylo, even though the film and the novelizations do a shit job of explaining it adequately. You have to squint and scratch and infer explanations.

That said, Snoke is a different kettle of fish. Snoke was, at least prior to TROS, more powerful than Kylo. Snoke was a suboptimal phylactery in part due to his deformities and physical impairments and, more importantly, weaker Force potential than Rey... but Snoke is objectively a far superior physical specimen than the rotting corpse Sheev inhabited for decades. That's indisputable, incontrovertible fact.

So why then would Sheev choose to endure a miserable existence, trapped on Exegol for decades in a literal corpse, rotting and putrid, immobile, and maintained entirely through artificial means when he has a bunch of viable Snokes on hand who are products of the same experimentation that produced Rey's father and ultimately Rey herself, suggesting Snoke has some genetic compatibility with the Emperor?

The only viable explanation, of course... is that Snoke wasn't powerful enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. That the rotting corpse Sheev inhabited, shitty as it was, was a more durable reliquary for his spirit than any Snoke could be.

Now again, you might say: well undead Sheev is > ROTJ Sheev and perhaps you could make that case, but the evidence does indeed indicate that Snoke was incapable of containing Sheev's spirit and the rotting clone corpse was the only viable vessel for Sheev outside of Rey.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel heavily implies that Palpatine intended to transfer his essence into Luke, though:

It was never indicated that Palpatine willingly refrained from using a Skywalker vessel, simply because he didn't like Skywalkers.

Said "hang up" I was referring to was being betrayed and killed by a Skywalker. Based on what he says and does when he kills Kylo, Sheev seems to be bearing quite a grudge against the Skywalker family.

Originally posted by Galan007
But where was it indicated that Palpatine despised Skywalkers to such an extent that he would rather transfer his essence into a deformed/mutated gimp, instead of a Skywalker..?

In fact, from Palpatine's POV I feel like possessing a Skywalker(and subsequently creating a mockery of the hope they once stood for) would please him quite a bit. /shrug

Except he doesn't simply take control of them, they become "one". Their consciousness joins the collective.

I think the "we will be one" part was a lie. Why would Sheev tell Rey that her spirit will be kicked out of her body?

Why is there any reason to believe it was a lie? His consciousness is, apparently, a collective of "all the Sith" it stands to reason the new host would join as well.

No evidence that "all the sith thing" is related to essence trsnsfer.

And it's not like "all the other sith" have a conscious of their own. Only they power was asimilated by Sidious.
Acording to starwars.com
"Though Sidious was a vessel of all the Sith's power..."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only viable explanation, of course... is that Snoke wasn't powerful enough to contain the Emperor's spirit.

That being said, I find it hard to completely rule-out the notion that Snoke was simply *too* genetically mutated/corrupted/abominated to be used as a proper vessel at all. Perhaps some of the cloned strandcasts were just too far gone to be used as receptacles, period -- less of a "can't contain your power", and more of a "can't receive your power in the first place" situation(like a phone without a SIM card.) /shrug

As you mentioned, we also cannot ignore the possibility that undead RoS Palpatine could have very well been more powerful than he was during RotJ -- which could be another [logical] reason why Snoke wasn't usable as a host, without capping Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine. /shrug x2

Regardless, lets say that Palpatine was indeed so desperate that he would have willingly transferred his essence into a gimpy Snoke clone, but couldn't(for whatever reason.) Why do you believe that he wouldn't have then immediately started trying to bring Kylo to Exegol and use him as a vessel instead -- if not when he was Luke's student, then certainly when he was Snoke's apprentice..? If he were truly desperate enough to use Snoke as a vessel, then transferring into Kylo(who would have actually been a suitable host) should have been a no-brainer.

That's why, as I said above, some of these plot-holes seem to indicate that specific/"perfect" genetic elements from Palpatine's own bloodline may have been required in a potential host body for the transfer to be successful... Which would help explain why Rey was evidently the *only* suitable host. /shrug x3

Originally posted by ares834
Except he doesn't simply take control of them, they become "one". Their consciousness joins the collective.

I highly doubt that would have changed if he'd transferred into Luke, Snoke, Rey, or Kylo.

Originally posted by Darthadi
No evidence that "all the sith thing" is related to essence trsnsfer.

Where did I say it was?

Originally posted by Darthadi
And it's not like "all the other sith" have a conscious of their own. Only they power was asimilated by Sidious.
Acording to starwars.com
"Though Sidious was a vessel of all the Sith's power..."

And according to Sidious in RoS, "all the Sith live in me". There is absolutely no reason to believe that he is lying.

Originally posted by Galan007
Even if Palpatine did indeed contain the power/essences of all the Sith before him, it's pretty clear that Palpatine alone was in full control of them all -- the "dominant essence", if you will.

I highly doubt that would have changed if he'd transferred into Luke, Snoke, Rey, or Kylo.

We don't know. He may very well be the dominant personality simply because it is his body. Either way, that's not an argument I ever made. My point is that Kylo would join the collective consciousness, not that he would be the dominant one.

Originally posted by Galan007
That is *a* viable explanation, sure. The *only* viable explanation, though? Not, imo. Like you said: the problem is that the film, novel, and supplementary material do a piss-poor job of explaining this shit with any sort of cohesive detail, so unfortunately all we can do is speculate.

Galan, respectfully, your reticence to accept my explanation appears to be motivated entirely by an attempt to defend the idea that Snoke ~ ROTJ Sheev.

Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, except this motivation is causing you to dismiss the most straightforward and defensible explanation for why a bunch of Snokes were left to tumble awkwardly in Sheev's test tube.

Now if you sincerely believe Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, you're free to reconcile that with my explanation by concluding that, in the unknown time period between ROTJ and Snoke's creation, Sidious's power exceeded what a ROTJ Sheev/Snoke could contain. That's way to thread all your needles in a coherent, consistent way.

That being said, I find it hard to completely rule-out the notion that Snoke was simply *too* genetically mutated/corrupted/abominated to be used as a proper vessel at all. Perhaps some of the cloned strandcasts were just too far gone to be used as receptacles, period -- less of a "can't contain your power", and more of a "can't receive your power in the first place" situation(like a phone without a SIM card.) /shrug

But there's no evidence of that.

As you mentioned, we also cannot ignore the possibility that undead RoS Palpatine could have very well been more powerful than he was during RotJ -- which could be another [logical] reason why Snoke wasn't usable as a host, without capping Snoke himself below the level of RotJ Palpatine. /shrug x2

Yes, if your goal is to preserve the idea that Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, this is the only viable reconciliation, because the idea that Snoke is simply too weak to contain Sheev's spirit is the best and most supported explanation for why Sidious didn't body hop into one of the pickled Snokes he had on hand.

Regardless, lets say that Palpatine was indeed so desperate that he would have willingly transferred his essence into a gimpy Snoke clone, but couldn't(for whatever reason.) Why do you believe that he wouldn't have then immediately started trying to bring Kylo to Exegol and use him as a vessel instead -- if not when he was Luke's student, then certainly when he was Snoke's apprentice..? If he were truly desperate enough to use Snoke as a vessel, then transferring into Kylo(who would have actually been a suitable host) should have been a no-brainer.

Snoke is a (1) blank receptacle (2) on hand (3) with genetic continuity, Kylo is (1) conscious, (2) not on hand, (3) with no genetic continuity. And possessing Snoke doesn't preclude a later attempt on Kylo if genetic continuity is not a factor.

That's why, as I said above, some of these plot-holes seem to indicate that specific/"perfect" genetic elements from Palpatine's own bloodline may have been required in a potential host body for the transfer to be successful... Which would help explain why Rey was evidently the *only* suitable host. /shrug x3

Which was already addressed above. Even if you factor in a supposed genetic continuity requirement for the Emperor's possession, Snoke was created from the same program that produced Rey's father and ultimately Rey herself, with the same intent of housing Sheev's spirit.

Snoke is clearly not strong enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. It is by far the best and most plausible explanation and none of the proposed alternatives come close.

Originally posted by ares834
We don't know. He may very well be the dominant personality simply because it is his body. Either way, that's not an argument I ever made. My point is that Kylo would join the collective consciousness, not that he would be the dominant one.

Palpatine continuously referred to himself as "I"(in an individual sense), and repeatedly mentioned facts from his own personal backstory. Moreover, even when Rey glimpsed into Palpatine's mind, she only saw his thoughts; his past. No one else's. So it seems like Palpatine alone was definitely in control of all the power he held.

Right. If Palpatine had transferred his essence into Kylo, he [Kylo] would have become part of the 'Omni-Sith' collective, but Palpatine himself would have still, logically, been in complete control over his power(and vessel.)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Galan, respectfully, your reticence to accept my explanation appears to be motivated entirely by an attempt to defend the idea that Snoke ~ ROTJ Sheev.

Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, except this motivation is causing you to dismiss the most straightforward and defensible explanation for why a bunch of Snokes were left to tumble awkwardly in Sheev's test tube.

Now if you sincerely believe Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, you're free to reconcile that with my explanation by concluding that, in the unknown time period between ROTJ and Snoke's creation, Sidious's power exceeded what a ROTJ Sheev/Snoke could contain. That's way to thread all your needles in a coherent, consistent way.

But there's no evidence of that.

Yes, if your goal is to preserve the idea that Snoke is ~ ROTJ Sheev, this is the only viable reconciliation, because the idea that Snoke is simply too weak to contain Sheev's spirit is the best and most supported explanation for why Sidious didn't body hop into one of the pickled Snokes he had on hand.

Snoke is a (1) blank receptacle (2) on hand (3) with genetic continuity, Kylo is (1) conscious, (2) not on hand, (3) with no genetic continuity. And possessing Snoke doesn't preclude a later attempt on Kylo if genetic continuity is not a factor.

Which was already addressed above. Even if you factor in a supposed genetic continuity requirement for the Emperor's possession, Snoke was created from the same program that produced Rey's father and ultimately Rey herself, with the same intent of housing Sheev's spirit.

Snoke is clearly not strong enough to contain the Emperor's spirit. It is by far the best and most plausible explanation and none of the proposed alternatives come close.

I do agree that you and Sidious66/Dominus presented *a* possible explanation. I am simply pointing out that it isn't the *only* possible explanation... As you yourself [reluctantly] seem to agree.

...And you also didn't answer my main question, which is really the crux of the "point" I am making:

Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, lets say that Palpatine was indeed so desperate that he would have willingly transferred his essence into a gimpy Snoke clone, but couldn't(for whatever reason.) Why do you believe that he wouldn't have then immediately started trying to bring Kylo to Exegol and use him as a vessel instead -- if not when he was Luke's student, then certainly when he was Snoke's apprentice..? If he were truly desperate enough to use Snoke as a vessel, then transferring into Kylo(who would have actually been a suitable host) should have been a no-brainer.

To summarize: If Snoke was deemed an unsuitable vessel because he could not contain Palpatine's power(as you're saying), then why wouldn't Palpatine immediately put his effort into "acquiring" a FAR more suitable(arguably "perfect"😉 host in Kylo?

Now, if you're saying that Palpatine didn't opt to inhabit Kylo's vessel due to some sort of lacking genetic prerequisites, then cool... We can have that discussion next.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's just it: this entire discussion hinges on theories and speculation, because we haven't been given any definitive answers in the source material released thus far. The ins-and-outs of essence transfer are still mostly unknown, and therefore open to interpretation.

I do agree that you and Sidious66/Dominus presented *a* possible explanation. I am simply pointing out that it isn't the *only* possible explanation... As you yourself [reluctantly] seem to agree.

The only two alternative explanations that have been offered are:
[list]
[*]Sheev could've jumped into Snoke but didn't because he was waiting on a perfect vessel (really dumb for the reasons described on the previous page)
[*]Sheev would've jumped into Snoke but couldn't because Snoke was too corrupt? genetically dissimilar? which requires a number of unproven conditions to be accepted and flies in the face of available evidence since Snoke is a product of the same program that created Rey's father and, ultimately, Rey herself
[/list]

My explanation is objectively far better than these alternatives. It requires the fewest number of assumptions and is the most concretely supported by the lore.

...And you also didn't answer my main question, which is really the crux of the "point" I am making:

To summarize: If Snoke was deemed an unsuitable vessel because he could not contain Palpatine's power(as you're saying), then why wouldn't Palpatine immediately put his effort into "acquiring" a FAR more suitable(arguably "perfect"😉 host in Kylo?

Now, if you're saying that Palpatine didn't opt to inhabit Kylo's vessel due to some sort of lacking genetic prerequisites, then cool... We can have that discussion next.

The lore implies Sidious had some sort of Sith purpose in mind for Kylo, perhaps as an apprentice to his reborn self. TROS Visual Dictionary and the Star Wars Book seem to indicate as much. We know from StarWars.com's databank that Sidious intended to take Rey as a vessel from the start despite his edict to Kylo that she die. Likely, then, Sheev intended to possess Rey and have Kylo as an apprentice. This would also explain why Sheev is pissed when he senses Leia has triggered Kylo's redemption.

Or perhaps there is indeed a genetic component. That has nothing to do with my point, which is that Snoke (a genetic offshoot of the Emperor, like Rey's father and Rey herself) is clearly too weak to serve as even an interim host for Sheev, which is why Sheev remains in his miserable undead form for decades.

Originally posted by ares834
Where did I say it was?

And according to Sidious in RoS, "all the Sith live in me". There is absolutely no reason to believe that he is lying.

One line (that is likely metaphor) in a movie is not enough to throw away decades of lore.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And Galan is referring to this, fyi:

https://i.redd.it/l3qhaijd1bi41.png

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it in this thread yet (I'm not reading every post), but that doesn't conclusively state Snoke is Sheev's equal. Luke says "Snoke was not a Sith Lord, but his mastery of the dark side was equally impressive" - he is comparing Snoke to "a Sith Lord" and merely using Sheev as an example of a Sith, but he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to Sheev specifically. The quote is open-ended, so it cannot by itself support the claim that Snoke has parity with the Emperor. Not to mention that idea is looking all the more unlikely in light of Dominis and Tempest's arguments.

Youre forgetting the most important part of the quote.

"UNLIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE BEFORE HIM, Snoke was not a Sith Lord, but his mastery of the dark side was equally as impressive, and terrifying".

Luke is clearly drawing a direct comparison between Snoke and Sidious.

😐

...that's the part where he cites Sheev as an example. Nothing you've said counteracts my point. I repeat:

Originally posted by Azronger
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it in this thread yet (I'm not reading every post), but that doesn't conclusively state Snoke is Sheev's equal. Luke says "Snoke was not a Sith Lord, but his mastery of the dark side was equally impressive" - he is comparing Snoke to "a Sith Lord" and merely using Sheev as an example of a Sith, but he's not necessarily comparing Snoke to Sheev specifically. The quote is open-ended, so it cannot by itself support the claim that Snoke has parity with the Emperor. Not to mention that idea is looking all the more unlikely in light of Dominis and Tempest's arguments.

Originally posted by Darthadi
If the "all the sith thing" and the essence transfer ritual are not related you have no proof that Kylo/Rey would became part of the sith collective inside Sidious (if such a thing even exists)

Other than the fact that he literally says that's the case...

Originally posted by Darthadi
The all the sith live in me is likely a metaphor for their power. We know that the sith can't live after death unless they have some sort of anchor or if they use essence transfer. 99% of the sith became one with the cosmic force after death (and before Sidious was even born) so Sheev couldn't possibly have their actual spirits inside of him.

One line (that is likely metaphor) in a movie is not enough to throw away decades of lore.

You make random ass assumptions to support your theory rather than follow what we are literally told on screen. The movie tells us that the Sith live in Sidious. If you have actual evidence to the contrary, provide it.

As for tossing out "decades of lore", that was explicitly done when the Jedi communed with Rey and gave her their power.