Superboy Prime vs universe 616

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Exactly this. Thats the difference between the comics and the forum. We're able to re-create battles without the restrictions of the comic book medium, the need to be artistically appealing, the need to appeal to a certain slice of the readership etc.

We can create threads where PIS/CIS are not a factor and just match people up with officially demonstrated abilities brought to the table.

Well said.

Characters of that level may sometimes suffer from PIS, sure, but some users here have tried to blow CIS out of proportion. CIS applies to stupid characters who are always inclined to lose, it even cites a specific character example in the rules. For all his power, Rhino will do a lot of stupid in a fight, and find a way to lose against almost any caliber of hero.
A character like Manhattan, Superman, Darkest Knight, Beyonder, or even Thor or whoever do not suffer from it. And choosing not to use a random power in a specific issue is not necessarily PIS or CIS. It's just storytelling.

In fact, there's a whole separate rule that governs it, which uses Flash as an example- just because he doesnt win every fight in one second and blitz everyone, doesn't mean he can't. It's within his power to do so.

But now where we find some disagreement; The point is, even that aside you have to believe all those esoteric powers aren't enough. We know he has them. Manhattan is even seeing the fight through the lens of time before we even get there. He's seeing it in the future and still thinks he can't win. In the Superman examples we've seen Superman simply run through reality manipulation time and again. Darkest Knights has two high end cosmic battles and other high end feats all around the time of the Prime fight. You can't possibly believe he forgot he has powers in this scenario just because he was forced into punches and kicks. As pointed out, lots of cosmics get into punches and kicks battle, with heros/villains and even with eachother.

PIS is something that is obvious and provable. For example, we know Black Panther couldnt hem up and embrass a Silver Surfer that was trying to fight him.

But Prime fighting Darkest Knight over the fate of the multiverse is quite a bit of a different scenario.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Annnnd its a washout people. 🙂

This man is so desperate for a win. Lol didn’t even give me 3 mins to respond. Smh I got a life outside of this forum.

Originally posted by Juntai
I both agree and disagree here, so let me explain a little.

Characters of that level may sometimes suffer from PIS, sure, but some users here have tried to blow CIS out of proportion. CIS applies to stupid characters who are always inclined to lose, it even cites a specific character example in the rules. For all his power, Rhino will do a lot of stupid in a fight, and find a way to lose against almost any caliber of hero.
A character like Manhattan, Superman, Darkest Knight, Beyonder, or even Thor or whoever do not suffer from it. And choosing not to use a random power in a specific issue is not necessarily PIS or CIS. It's just storytelling.

In fact, there's a whole separate rule that governs it, which uses Flash as an example- just because he doesnt win every fight in one second and blitz everyone, doesn't mean he can't. It's within his power to do so.

But now where we find some disagreement; The point is, even that aside you have to believe all those esoteric powers aren't enough. We know he has them. Manhattan is even seeing the fight through the lens of time before we even get there. He's seeing it in the future and still thinks he can't win. In the Superman examples we've seen Superman simply run through reality manipulation time and again. Darkest Knights has two high end cosmic battles and other high end feats all around the time of the Prime fight. You can't possibly believe he forgot he has powers in this scenario just because he was forced into punches and kicks. As pointed out, lots of cosmics get into punches and kicks battle, with heros/villains and even with eachother.

PIS is something that is obvious and provable. For example, we know Black Panther couldnt hem up and embrass a Silver Surfer that was trying to fight him.

But Prime fighting Darkest Knight over the fate of the multiverse is quite a bit of a different scenario.

One Prime’s punches were glowing so it’s not straight punches and kicks. He briefly even took away DK’s power. If DK could have prevented prime he would have. He wouldn’t just sit there or throw punches when all of his plans were getting unraveled by an angry kid. The answer he couldn’t do anything. Prime did the power drain on a being >>>> marvel but these guys think prime would get drained. Smh.
I posted a scan of Prime shattering DK’s realities by punching him in flight.

Prime ends this fast I mean who is going to stop him from doing this while punching TOAA or LT or Eternity? He’s shown that he can do this on panel against a being more powerful than all I’ve mentioned save TOAA.

Originally posted by Juntai
I both agree and disagree here, so let me explain a little.

Characters of that level may sometimes suffer from PIS, sure, but some users here have tried to blow CIS out of proportion. CIS applies to stupid characters who are always inclined to lose, it even cites a specific character example in the rules. For all his power, Rhino will do a lot of stupid in a fight, and find a way to lose against almost any caliber of hero.
A character like Manhattan, Superman, Darkest Knight, Beyonder, or even Thor or whoever do not suffer from it. And choosing not to use a random power in a specific issue is not necessarily PIS or CIS. It's just storytelling.

In fact, there's a whole separate rule that governs it, which uses Flash as an example- just because he doesnt win every fight in one second and blitz everyone, doesn't mean he can't. It's within his power to do so.

But now where we find some disagreement; The point is, even that aside you have to believe all those esoteric powers aren't enough. We know he has them. Manhattan is even seeing the fight through the lens of time before we even get there. He's seeing it in the future and still thinks he can't win. In the Superman examples we've seen Superman simply run through reality manipulation time and again. Darkest Knights has two high end cosmic battles and other high end feats all around the time of the Prime fight. You can't possibly believe he forgot he has powers in this scenario just because he was forced into punches and kicks. As pointed out, lots of cosmics get into punches and kicks battle, with heros/villains and even with eachother.

PIS is something that is obvious and provable. For example, we know Black Panther couldnt hem up and embrass a Silver Surfer that was trying to fight him.

But Prime fighting Darkest Knight over the fate of the multiverse is quite a bit of a different scenario.

So maybe im a bit harsh on DK. His performance in that battle wouldnt be down to CIS as hes not a stupid character. It would be down to the storytelling and in my opinion the incident would be regarded as PIS.

Drawing parallels with your Flash example, with all of the abilities DK had at his disposal for him to not bring any of them to bear and to resort to a simple fist fight is tantamount to PIS.

We've seen via all of the Crisises and reboots how all of these characters, Superboy Prime, Superman etc are all helpless against high level chronal/reality manipulation.

Dr Manhattan casually just discarded 10years of their lives like it was nothing and they had no say in the matter.

DK was Dr Manhattan topped up with Crisis energy and was creating realities and manipulating space/time left, right and centre.

He has a great cosmic battle with Perpetua that involved an energy blasting and matter manipulating showdown.

Then when it came to SBP it was fisticuffs. 😬

Either his previous exertions in the near past hampered him or it was PIS. There are no two ways about.

All of these characters have been shown to be vulnerable to high level manipulations the kind cosmics like DK, Perpetua and Dr M excel in.

Originally posted by Diesldude
But the thing is, it wasn’t just punches and kicks.

One Prime’s punches were glowing so it’s not straight punches and kicks. He briefly even took away DK’s power. If DK could have prevented prime he would have. He wouldn’t just sit there or throw punches when all of his plans were getting unraveled by an angry kid. The answer he couldn’t do anything. Prime did the power drain on a being >>>> marvel but these guys think prime would get drained. Smh.
I posted a scan of Prime shattering DK’s realities by punching him in flight.

Prime ends this fast I mean who is going to stop him from doing this while punching TOAA or LT or Eternity? He’s shown that he can do this on panel against a being more powerful than all I’ve mentioned save TOAA.

Unless you have some on panel verification that it was more than just fisticuffs then drop the point. Your unverified opinion is not enough. Refer to conclusive on panel statements or just preface your assertions with "in my opinion" and then accept that they arent canon.

As highlighted articulately by Juntai and to a lesser extent Adam Grimes, battles of fisticuffs are often what confrontations end up in at all tiers of the hierarchy.

Its easier and more visually interesting for the reader if a battles expressed in ways we can relate to.

For example in Thanos Imperative there was a confrontation between the Abstracts/cosmics and the Undying Ones from the Cancerverse. It appeared to be a stand off but we're told the battle was actually going down at the Abstract level:

https://imgur.com/rmA5mwb

https://imgur.com/gvZ5s8I

So despite something basic being depicted on panel, we have on panel confirmation that something deeper is actually going on

When Odin faced Seth and engaged in what appeared to be basic energy fuelled fisticuffs, we have on panel confirmation that something deeper is actually going down and both characters emissions are actually affecting reality.

https://imgur.com/jDEjZcH

When you have official verification of Superboy Prime doing something more than just punching then let us know 👆

Recognise the difference between official confirmation and your personal interpretation of what some ambiguous art shows. The latter holds no weight here.

More examples.

Here are two different fights between Molecule Man and Beyonder engaging both times in what appear to just be fisticuffs but with on panel/official verification that its more than just that:

https://imgur.com/twa9nzE

https://imgur.com/NH97xBi

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Recognise the difference between official confirmation and your personal interpretation of what some ambiguous art shows. The latter holds no weight here.

👆

Lol at this discount mr master.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Lol at this discount mr master.

Carry on sniping from the sidelines fear

My insistence on conclusive on panel evidence and the disregarding of ABC logic is a world away from Mr Masters schtick.

Lol @ you sidekick 🙄

Meh, 2/10 reply.

Is Adam and Diesldude the same peeps

Marvel 616 wins for obvious reasons that GS pointed out. Superboy Prime was always subject to time. If not he wouldn't have been sitting on that rock wondering what to do. The time and reality warpers would have a field day with SB Prime. Giving Superboy Prime the win here amounts to a no limits fallacy imo.

Originally posted by carver9
Is Adam and Diesldude the same peeps

Originally posted by Stoic
Marvel 616 wins for obvious reasons that GS pointed out. Superboy Prime was always subject to time. If not he wouldn't have been sitting on that rock wondering what to do. The time and reality warpers would have a field day with SB Prime. Giving Superboy Prime the win here amounts to a no limits fallacy imo.

Because time and reality warpers are Prime’s Kryptonite right?

Galactic Storm is akin to Muhammad Ali. Grimes is one those countless fools he knocked around.

This grime guy wont be remembered.

I wont either, but it was interesting to see the beating.

Don't let comicbook bias fool you Mr. Master was discount Galactic Storm all along

Originally posted by meep-meep
Galactic Storm is akin to Muhammad Ali. Grimes is one those countless fools he knocked around.

This grime guy wont be remembered.

I wont either, but it was interesting to see the beating.

Originally posted by Diesldude
here comes the sock attack.

Really? 😬

You cant just accept that others share my viewpoint?

Feel free to ask the mods to investigate. 👆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Recognise the difference between official confirmation and your personal interpretation of what some ambiguous art shows. The latter holds no weight here.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

When you have official verification of Superboy Prime doing something more than just punching then let us know 👆

He flew into Dk and shattered universes.
He stole DK's power.
neither of these are prime just punching.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Unless you have some on panel verification that it was more than just fisticuffs then drop the point. Your unverified opinion is not enough. Refer to conclusive on panel statements or just preface your assertions with "in my opinion" and then accept that they arent canon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

As highlighted articulately by Juntai and to a lesser extent Adam Grimes, battles of fisticuffs are often what confrontations end up in at all tiers of the hierarchy.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Its easier and more visually interesting for the reader if a battles expressed in ways we can relate to.

For example in Thanos Imperative there was a confrontation between the Abstracts/cosmics and the Undying Ones from the Cancerverse. It appeared to be a stand off but we're told the battle was actually going down at the Abstract level:

https://imgur.com/rmA5mwb

https://imgur.com/gvZ5s8I

So despite something basic being depicted on panel, we have [B]on panel confirmation that something deeper is actually going on

When Odin faced Seth and engaged in what appeared to be basic energy fuelled fisticuffs, we have on panel confirmation that something deeper is actually going down and both characters emissions are actually affecting reality. [/B]

thanks for bringing this up because i already stated something similar and why I disagree with Juntai and AG. what looks like a abstracts staring at each other is actually a battle being fought on the abstract level.
If you recall, I i asked what would you rather see, two guys with their fingers resting on their temples and staring at each other or an action packed fight that was taking place all across reality? In your example surfer explains this, but in prime's case, you see realities being shattered (on panel) when he flies and punches DK.
And on panel statement that he could finish this and destroy everything.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

When you have official verification of Superboy Prime doing something more than just punching then let us know 👆

You brought up a single statement from surfer to show there is more than meets the eye when there is a battle with marvel but you refuse to accept prime's statement that he could kill dk and destroy everything with a punch or the fact you see universes being destroyed via art and via prime's statement.

You are quick to accept a single statement from marvel but refuse to accept primes and would just rather see a fist fight brawl. LOL biased much.