outliers vs consistency

I think this comes up in a lot of threads. For example every time someone tries to compare combat speed between WW and any other high tier.

In the case of characters like Superman, Orion, SS etc I personally see it as coming down to a case of PIS. I mean when you literally have characters that can tank almost anything, punch thru almost anything, blast and destroy almost anything and they have ridiculous combat speed you just can't write a good story if they use all their abilities to their best constantly. I think it's why stories tend to default to them tanking whatever and just powering thru. In the specific case of Orion I don't beleive his peak combat speed is in the same league as Surfernor Supes by any means, he's more than a few tiers below that.

I think (like I said in another thread) for a lot of these characters with uber high levs of durability its more a case of, well it's only going to be like a tickle when henhits me so why bother to dodge. So for example innthe casenof the thread vs Logan, Sablretooth and spidey, I do believe that when they first strike at him they will connect because he wouldn't expect to be harmed. As soon as one of those admantium claws however cuts him and he realizes they are a danger his way of doingnbattle is going to change. It's the same for Thor, he doesn't call on the more isoteric powers of Mjilnor until he realises this opponent isnt someone he's likely to smack down in a brawl. Superman reallynonly uses heat vision or freeze breath when his muscles can't solve it.

Because they cant make a decent story consistently that allows them to use all their powers to their best the plot demands they don't always use them.

What Sin, boks, Smurph and Phildo said.

I mean, not to sound mocking (and apologies if I do)....but just a few days ago you were arguing that Hulk can adapt by growing organs, even though he's done something only tangentially related, once, maybe twice in his thousands of appearances.

You DID say it was unlikely, but that it WOULD happen.

Now we're talking about an even simpler power, that of speed. If Orion has hypersonic punches, and can throw them at supersonic speeds in a canon comic, and hasn't lost them....why can't he do it here?

Anything assumed here can be false. For example; Galactus once upon a very long time ago, beat the shit out of the Sphinx, and placed him in a time loop to repeat his ill fated life over and over again. I don't recall him ever doing so after that. This does not mean that we can automatically assume that he lost that ability.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What Sin, boks, Smurph and Phildo said.

I mean, not to sound mocking (and apologies if I do)....but just a few days ago you were arguing that Hulk can adapt by growing organs, even though he's done something only tangentially related, once, maybe twice in his thousands of appearances.

You DID say it was unlikely, but that it WOULD happen.

Now we're talking about an even simpler power, that of speed. If Orion has hypersonic punches, and can throw them at supersonic speeds in a canon comic, and hasn't lost them....why can't he do it here?

Physically adapting as you know is an innate ability. How often is the Hulk placed in situations that his body has to adapt to his environment? Did he do it again on his return to Earth from Sakaar? Can a particular writer forget, or just flat out not realize that the Hulk's body can adapt to it's environment?

That's my point.

Leo was arguing that Hulk could, and thus, would.

So why forget that line of reasoning with Orion and speed?

Orion like all characters has a level of speed, but there are levels that may be above his. He's fast but not quite revered as a comic book speedster until you place him against a slow moving Mammoth type of character. In this case, consistency may be interrupted by another writer that fails to realize, or simply accept him as a speedster.

How we jumped to the conclusion that he's a speedster in the first place is the type of reasoning that I'd be interested in understanding.

No one said he was a speedster, though.

Just that he had superspeed. For example, when fighting Superman their punches were creating sonic booms so powerful, it was blowing windows out around the city they were fighting in.

That's obviously NOT speedster level. But it's fast.

The question for me is: why *wouldn't* an immensely seasoned warrior(like Orion, since he's been a topic of discussion lately) use all of the base/rudimentary physical attributes in his arsenal if he needed to..?

Granted, I would agree that Orion is, more times than not, portrayed as a brawler-type. That said, a few of his past feats show us that he possesses *some* degree of enhanced combat speed... And, so far as we know, this hasn't been removed from his repertoire. So if Orion were fighting an opponent with similar physical attributes to his own, what logical reason would he have to *not* use his own speed to its optimum efficiency under the full capacity rule of KMC..?

Same concept applies to pretty much any character with enhanced speed, tbh: if they have the ability to dodge a strike that could potentially injure them, why would they just stand there and allow themselves to get hit by said punch?

For example: my 2 year old occasionally likes to run up and try to slap my 8 year old in the face. So what does the 8 year old do if she sees the 2 year old winding up for a slap? She instinctively jukes out of the way with her superior combat speed to avoid the strike.

Maybe not the best analogy, but you get my point...

Yeah, I had the same question/analogy back when discussing Weapon H/Superman.

Hell,we don't even need to use kids. 'Dumb' animals like dogs and cats would flinch and dodge out of the way if you attack them. A fly would zip out of the way if it detects you trying to attack them.

Yet somehow, we throw that all out and say Orion/insert character here are dumber than a fruit fly, lol.

I can see an argument being made for Orion wanting to test his mettle in a battle, but that's it

Originally posted by Bentley
You get to choose whichever depending on whether you like the character or not

Originally posted by abhilegend
If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.

We did the same post.

so what about Jane Thor for example? Pulling out the motherstorm seems to be damn near one of her go to moves and to me that is basically ramping it up to 100.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If we go by comicvine, everything Superman does is outlier except where he looks bad then it's consistent and everything Thor does is consistency except where he looks bad then it's an outlier. Because Thor and Superman are still peers somehow.

I've always wondered what board lowballs Superman the most. CV, Herochat or something else?

Originally posted by Stoic

How we jumped to the conclusion that he's a speedster in the first place is the type of reasoning that I'd be interested in understanding.

No conclusion of him being a "speedster" was made.He was in a thread vs Logan, Sabertooth and Spiderman and all that is being presented is that he is fast enough to dodge their attacks.

As I said earlier here in a normal fight I do expect Logan or sabertooth to tag him initially because he wouldn't think they would be a threat. Once he realises admantium claws etc can cut him he should dodge them fairly well.

Speed is one of those things that is natural and innate. A character does not have to consciously think about using it. If a character possesses speed then they will automatically use it if they come to the conclusion that is the only way not to lose.

Other powers are different and requires thought and creativity. This is where character plays a bigger role. Surfer may or may not think about some of the many abilities he possess in a particular fight. He mostly thinks about blasting and flying around. He may resort to other tactics if blasting is not getting the job done.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What Sin, boks, Smurph and Phildo said.

I mean, not to sound mocking (and apologies if I do)....but just a few days ago you were arguing that Hulk can adapt by growing organs, even though he's done something only tangentially related, once, maybe twice in his thousands of appearances.

You DID say it was unlikely, but that it WOULD happen.

Now we're talking about an even simpler power, that of speed. If Orion has hypersonic punches, and can throw them at supersonic speeds in a canon comic, and hasn't lost them....why can't he do it here?

sigh....you're completely missing the point. this isn't about hulk growing organs. or orion throwing punches at super speed. this is about how many times does hulk need to grow organs for it to be considered valid and not an outlier ability? how many times does orion need to fight at hypersonic speed for the power to be considered valid in a vs match? is it still valid for someone to use superman's t-vo in a vs match though he hasn't shown it in a million issues?

again, when does something STOP being an outlier, and instead become something that can be reliably used in character in a match?

i didn't think this was that difficult. people see agendas everywhere. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
sigh....you're completely missing the point. this isn't about hulk growing organs. or orion throwing punches at super speed. this is about how many times does hulk need to grow organs for it to be considered valid and not an outlier ability? how many times does orion need to fight at hypersonic speed for the power to be considered valid in a vs match? is it still valid for someone to use superman's t-vo in a vs match though he hasn't shown it in a million issues?

I would argue T-Vo is invalid because Superman seemingly doesn’t have that power anymore.

I would argue Orion won’t reflexively start a battle moving hypersonic because it’s out of character.

I would argue that Hulk’s healing and adaptation is limited by an analogy of what he’s done on panel.

Imo, the question of “how often” poses a different discussion depending on the basis for invalidity. If “valid” means “considered in character for a forum fight”, then the answer is different than “considered a part of his powerset”.

If it’s the latter (ie does he even have that power? was that just a weird one-off showing?) then I go back to my previous post: imo, people gotta read the comic and then ask if it seems like the character can still do whatever the power is. At the extreme, one showing might be enough to prove that it’s a part of his powerset.

nice. 👆

i can get behind that. if it's a case by case thing that makes it very difficult and often subjective but that's a fair answer imo.

the only thing i would say to further clarify is this: valid here, as regards a power/ability, is intended to mean is fairly available for use by posters as legit abilities to call upon for a character in a vs match that is also IN character.

in the hulk case, it's not ooc for him to adapt--some may call it that, but the term doesn't quite seem to fit for me. it's more a case of ltd showings.

perhaps the issue in the thread is that people just decide an invalid feat is automatically OUT of character? maybe that's why some are conflating my earlier thread with this one. i DO NOT see the issue as being the same at all.

another example might be nate grey and time stop. i've seen it argued any number of times that nate can simply stop time to win a match, or i see his 'plank time' feat called upon constantly as a reference for his speed/reactions. nate has only ever stopped time once, yet, as i said, people seem fine in general with calling upon that power in vs matches. likewise with the plank time feat.

the point of the thread to try and get a better understanding of why something like that is considered by many to be 'valid' but other single-showing or extremely ltd showings, are not. is there a number of times a feat needs to be performed for it to be considered in character? i think i get what you're saying smurph--you think it's dependent on both the story, and the nature of the ability. that's a messy answer though! 😂

but...maybe you're right and it's simply an issue that does NOT have any kind of a simple answer. and that's fine too. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
nice. 👆

i can get behind that. if it's a case by case thing that makes it very difficult and often subjective but that's a fair answer imo.

the only thing i would say to further clarify is this: valid here, as regards a power/ability, is intended to mean [b]is fairly available for use by posters as legit abilities to call upon for a character in a vs match that is also IN character.

in the hulk case, it's not ooc for him to adapt--some may call it that, but the term doesn't quite seem to fit for me. it's more a case of ltd showings.

perhaps the issue in the thread is that people just decide an invalid feat is automatically OUT of character? maybe that's why some are conflating my earlier thread with this one. i DO NOT see the issue as being the same at all.

another example might be nate grey and time stop. i've seen it argued any number of times that nate can simply stop time to win a match, or i see his 'plank time' feat called upon constantly as a reference for his speed/reactions. nate has only ever stopped time once, yet, as i said, people seem fine in general with calling upon that power in vs matches. likewise with the plank time feat.

the point of the thread to try and get a better understanding of why something like that is considered by many to be 'valid' but other single-showing or extremely ltd showings, are not. is there a number of times a feat needs to be performed for it to be considered in character? i think i get what you're saying smurph--you think it's dependent on both the story, and the nature of the ability. that's a messy answer though! 😂

but...maybe you're right and it's simply an issue that does NOT have any kind of a simple answer. and that's fine too. 👆 [/B]

Arguing in character is extremely easy. What's more difficult is whether the character still has that ability.

Lets discuss the latter.
I would say if a character hasn't used a power for about 10-20 years then it is safe to say they don't have it anymore.
10-20 years is just a proposal. We can say the last 2 runs or last 5-10 years or something. I don't know.

Originally posted by leonidas
sigh....you're completely missing the point. this isn't about hulk growing organs. or orion throwing punches at super speed. this is about how many times does hulk need to grow organs for it to be considered valid and not an outlier ability? how many times does orion need to fight at hypersonic speed for the power to be considered valid in a vs match? is it still valid for someone to use superman's t-vo in a vs match though he hasn't shown it in a million issues?

again, when does something STOP being an outlier, and instead become something that can be reliably used in character in a match?

i didn't think this was that difficult. people see agendas everywhere. /shrug

For example, I see base physical powers/attributes(like combat speed, for example) in a completely different light than some of the more exotic abilities(like T-Vo.)

Combat speed(be it offensive or defensive) is something that even an untrained ock with child-level intellect would instinctively utilize whenever possible during a fight(ie. "If I'm fast enough to NOT get punched... I'm not going to let myself get punched."😉 So if a particular character has displayed enhanced combat speed at some point(s) over the years(however sparse), and said showings have not been retconned or flagrantly contradicted by other material, I believe it's reasonable to believe they could/would use their natural speed in a forum fight.

...Highly exotic one-offs, on the other hand? Different story.

But again, that's just my opinion. /shrug

Hope people understand that characters like Hulk himself even have showings of being mentioned and showing him having SUPER speed. We are either looking at consistency or a characters capabilities. If we are looking at capabilities, Hulk dance around Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak without getting touched. If it's consistency we are looking at, then he would get punched by Darkseid, Mangog and Kalibak.

Also, in regards to speed, yes, it's a natural ability but so is Surfers matter manipulation along with his other 100s of abilities since all of it naturally dwell on the power cosmic.