outliers vs consistency

Originally posted by -Pr-
Once to know they have super speed at all.

I don't know, a half-dozen? To get an average. That can include fighting people with superspeed too.

I like how you say "can include fighting people at super speed".

Because a lot of people pretend a character with blatant examples of super speed who never uses it in a fight, will not have super speed in a forum fight. Val Armorr the Karate Kid is a prominent example of this, regularly dodging Kryptonian level super speed, occasionally outreacting Flash level speedsters, and even dodging Impulse in the form of Speed Force Lightning while holding onto a lightning rod.

By all that, he should blitz the crap out of any street leveler or meta. But nope, struggles with Robin the boy wonder, must be a scrub.

😂

so how do YOU rationalize that? what's the PIS there? is it PIS when he fights a kryptonian? or is it PIS when he fights robin? how do you decide?

the sbp discussions taking place make me wonder about his punches 'reality-changing' ability too. would that ability be considered something you could use in a forum match? i've seen it cited any number of times. but the power is pretty random, and certainly when you look at the number of times he's punched something vs the number of times he's altered reality, the ability can be viewed to be very rare. fair play to call on a punch that we can't even predict the effects of...?

Originally posted by cdtm
I like how you say "can include fighting people at super speed".

Because a lot of people pretend a character with blatant examples of super speed who never uses it in a fight, will not have super speed in a forum fight. Val Armorr the Karate Kid is a prominent example of this, regularly dodging Kryptonian level super speed, occasionally outreacting Flash level speedsters, and even dodging Impulse in the form of Speed Force Lightning while holding onto a lightning rod.

By all that, he should blitz the crap out of any street leveler or meta. But nope, struggles with Robin the boy wonder, must be a scrub.

Bat-family never counts. Ever. Just like Cap and Logan, we need to treat those encounters as special cases.

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

so how do YOU rationalize that? what's the PIS there? is it PIS when he fights a kryptonian? or is it PIS when he fights robin? how do you decide?

the sbp discussions taking place make me wonder about his punches 'reality-changing' ability too. would that ability be considered something you could use in a forum match? i've seen it cited any number of times. but the power is pretty random, and certainly when you look at the number of times he's punched something vs the number of times he's altered reality, the ability can be viewed to be very rare. fair play to call on a punch that we can't even predict the effects of...?

SBP's "reality punch" had extenuating circumstances attached to it, not least of which was that he had a physical barrier of reality to actually hit.

For the most part, he's not going to punch Thor and fracture reality in a forum match.

People use Batman to downplay high tier showings, though. When did something come into play where Batman encounters not counting? I'm not disputing you, I'm asking a question.

Example, me using Hulk surviving a all put punch from Galactus and then someone mentioning it doesn't count and it's PIS because people like Batman withstand hits from Wonder Woman and Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
People use Batman to downplay high tier showings, though. When did something come into play where Batman encounters not counting? I'm not disputing you, I'm asking a question.

Example, me using Hulk surviving a all put punch from Galactus and then someone mentioning it doesn't count and it's PIS because people like Batman withstand hits from Wonder Woman and Superman.

If a person uses Batman to try to make another character look bad, then they're trolling and/or a dumbass. Simple as that.

...That's not the same thing.

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

so how do YOU rationalize that? what's the PIS there? is it PIS when he fights a kryptonian? or is it PIS when he fights robin? how do you decide?

the sbp discussions taking place make me wonder about his punches 'reality-changing' ability too. would that ability be considered something you could use in a forum match? i've seen it cited any number of times. but the power is pretty random, and certainly when you look at the number of times he's punched something vs the number of times he's altered reality, the ability can be viewed to be very rare. fair play to call on a punch that we can't even predict the effects of...?

😂

yeah, i've said this before but it could use some consideration here--if something happens over and over (ie, consistently) then it should no longer be considered PIS. imo. batman is a great example, as is logan. both have made entire careers out of battling people well above their tiers, and each does so with regularity. if it happens over and over, i don't like to label it PIS because to do so would render almost ALL their stories PIS. to me that makes no sense--how can we just discount so many showings? if it happens on a consistent basis, i think that should override the definition of pis. imo.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Its not something he can turn on or off.
Its definitely something the writer can use in a reasonable enough setting though.

that the writer can use--so you don't think it would be valid in a forum fight? the ability is purely pre-crisis-like in it's lack of logic. i tend to agree that it shouldn't come up in most matches. i wonder if it's anger related...?

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

yeah, i've said this before but it could use some consideration here--if something happens over and over (ie, consistently) then it should no longer be considered PIS. imo. batman is a great example, as is logan. both have made entire careers out of battling people well above their tiers, and each does so with regularity. if it happens over and over, i don't like to label it PIS because to do so would render almost ALL their stories PIS. to me that makes no sense--how can we just discount so many showings? if it happens on a consistent basis, i think that should override the definition of pis. imo.

To be fair, there's more of a disconnect when it comes to Logan and Batman.

When it comes to people like Hulk and Superman, these are characters that, by design, can be written as having no limits to what their power can do.

Whereas with Batman and Logan and Cap, etc, we're supposed to believe that they're underdogs with limits that should stop them surviving the things they do. They're well beyond the "street levellers are peak human" stuff that we see the likes of Green Arrow and such do. That's why they're a cluster****.

Originally posted by leonidas
that the writer can use--so you don't think it would be valid in a forum fight? the ability is purely pre-crisis-like in it's lack of logic. i tend to agree that it shouldn't come up in most matches. i wonder if it's anger related...?

Originally posted by -Pr-
There is a huge disconnect in comics though, that I don't think gets addressed enough on here or in the comics themselves (the animated stuff does a better job of it), is when two characters who we know have superspeed fight each other... and yet on the panels we see no motion effects, no blurs, no streaks. Just punches and kicks, even though when we know that these two have speed, they should be using it against each other. Do we infer that Superman and Wonder Woman are using their speed against each other, even if we don't see the typical "effects" that come with such things? Or do we pretend that for some reason, even though they might be trying to smack the head off each other, they're somehow not? I mean, we can say it's CIS, sure, but it seems silly to me.

We infer they are using superspeed because they have it, despite no motion blurs.

Seems like a good thread to bump, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

We infer they are using superspeed because they have it, despite no motion blurs.

Zero proof that speed was used here. We don't just assume things without evidence.

Originally posted by carver9
Zero proof that speed was used here. We don't just assume things without evidence.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
How do you interpret "at their speed"

With evidence. Example, Gladiator fighting Hulk, I wouldn't say since Gladiator can move billions of times the speed of light, he was using thar speed against Hulk, "unless I have solid evidence of him even using super speed throughout the fight against Hulk". I also don't think Surfer and Nova Prime was fighting at crazy speeds or Surfer and Thor. There's no evidence of it.

Originally posted by carver9
With evidence. Example, Gladiator fighting Hulk, I wouldn't say since Gladiator can move billions of times the speed of light, he was using thar speed against Hulk, "unless I have solid evidence of him even using super speed throughout the fight against Hulk". I also don't think Surfer and Nova Prime was fighting at crazy speeds or Surfer and Thor. There's no evidence of it.

Originally posted by carver9
Zero proof that speed was used here. We don't just assume things without evidence.

I don't think you know what evidence means. How are you doing with the Flash and Supergirl reading?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So how do you interpret the sentence "at their *speed*, they beat you nearly to death in an instant" ?

Then that's proof. I'm primarily disputing Dark comment about speed lines doesnt mean speed was being used. If there's no indication of speed being used (minus the statement I missed about speed), then we need something.

Originally posted by carver9
Then that's proof. I'm primarily disputing Dark comment about speed lines doesnt mean speed was being used. If there's no indication of speed being used (minus the statement I missed about speed), then we need something.

Yeah lol you obviously missed it then 😂

Go sit back down

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Seems like a good thread to bump, no?

😂

not sure. didn't accomplish much the first time though I guess it engendered some good discussion. whenever pr is involved it usually makes for interesting Convo 👆

don't know that there's much more to add though but...have at it.

for my part, I still feel this way:
i've said in the past i tend to view battles on a spectrum--often out of 10 in my head. i make some allowances for outlying abilities then factor in what i feel are typical powers/tendencies based on what characters do MOST often. but if it's ONE battle, it becomes a lot more difficult. in single battles, how much support IS legitimate support?

I like the spectrum because in an 'out of ten' scenario I can factor in outlier feats and credit them. but as I said then--a single match is much tougher. in single match ups I tend to stay with most consistent feats and discard outliers--certainly extreme outliers. :/